Midbass in Kickpanel - pix and tips?

Topper

Hi guys!

I'm looking to finally try out some midbasses mounted in the kickpanels and would love to see pix of people who are doing the same.

Also for those running midbass speaks in their kicks:
1. How are they performing? Are you happy?
2. How'd you maximize midbass performance?


Midbass of choice = SR6500 midbass

For anyone running the SR6500 midbass in their kicks:
1. Is yours aimed at the listeners? or flush with the kickpanel?
2. How's the SR6500 midbass performance off-axis? (as my preference would be to install them flush)


(pix of the finished kickpanel as well as pix taken during installation would be much appreciated)

MacLeod

Im assuming youre talking about midrange speakers and not midbass speakers. Those generally go in the doors and the midrange speakers go in the kicks.

If youre wanting midrange speakers then you might consider the SR5250's. Theyre smaller and would fit a lot easier in the kicks. Plus they can easily play up to 5 KHz before starting to roll off so you can cross them over higher for better imaging.

Topper

actually i'm hoping to keep things 2-way with no speakers mounted in the doors so yep was looking at midbass/midrange in the kicks

I actually have the SR6500 midbass already so thats why i'd want to stick with it (otherwise i would have seriously considered the 5.25" version based mostly on your success with them ).

MacLeod

Sounds like a plan then. If you can fit them in the kick panels that would be the best spot for them. They have pretty solid off axis response. Theyll play up to 5 KHz without rolling off but they get pretty thin above that. I have mine at 4. I tried them at 5 but couldnt get it dialed in. When I put them at 4, all the peaks and dips smoothed out and everything kinda fell into place. So yeah, theyll work great in the kicks and off axis (i.e. firing across at each other).

candaddy

Read this one:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67496

Topper

thanks for the link bud. Found it pretty informative .

Also am going to be pairing it with some ID horns so not too worried about how high they'll play but more about the best way to maximize midbass performance with such a small airspace to work with.

Have you guys cut into the metal to enlarge the airspace? how'd that work out? any chance anyone has pix of this?


MAC:

You still got your SR mids mounted on the kicks? if so, can you post pix of them to refresh my memory

candaddy

I cut the interior panel out (metal, inner body panel) and built a box that goes between the front door hinges and the front tire, inside the fender. I then made a baffle plate and I've got a .42^3ft enclosure there. That's pretty small for my Momo's but would be much better for the SR's, which I'm thinking about upgrading to in the future. In any event, it can be done. Some guys build their kicks and cut a hole in them for venting into the carpet and in theory that's an aperiodic enclosure. Those links in the other post mention that somewhere.

tk421

oh wow.. just looked back at that old post . i had this same question.

and i can now speak from experience too...

kicks rock. i regret moving mine to the doors. ( i thought the doors = more volume = better response. but no. tonality and time suffered. i thought time alignment would help.. but TA sucks.)

MacLeod

Topper wrote: »

MAC:

You still got your SR mids mounted on the kicks? if so, can you post pix of them to refresh my memory

My mids are in the doors. Ive got a fuse box and hood release latch in my kick panels so I wont be mounting speakers there any time soon.

Topper

Thanks for all the responses peeps. They really have been helping me evaluate all my options .


CANDADDY:

After all the cutting and work you did to squeeze out the extra space, how was the result? midbass nice and strong? (am planning to do almost exactly what you mentioned)


TK421:

I'm glad to hear that . Why'd you move them to the doors though? I'm sure kicks will be great but since its only a 2-way setup, my biggest worry is ensuring i can still get great midbass mounted in that location.

candaddy

Topper,

My install is kind of a work in progress, so it's a little pre-mature to say what the end result is/will be.

For now (they are in and playing) the mid-bass is good, not super, but in no way weak. Before, when my subs were working, drums sounded really good. Now they are still tight and punchy, but I don't get the same feel to bass drums, etc. I need to get a better mic for my RTA setup and then I can more authoritative say how it works. The Momo's are not the best for a small sealed enclosure because they aren't designed for it. I've listened to some rap and some house/techno music and been surprised at how well they can keep up though.

When it comes to mid-bass there are two main things to consider. The first is to choose a speaker to match your enclosure size (or vise-versa) and the other thing is phase. If you hook one speaker out of electrical phase you have no bass right? The same holds true if you have one playing close by and one further away. In my case with the kicks, that was the only way to get the path lengths within reason and totally the best compromise for my vehicle, some cars would have been different though and door installs would have been better (more enclosure volume with possibly the same - or nearly the same- path length difference).

I use WinISD to check enclosure volume and roll-off characteristics, it's a great program considering it's free.

tk421

Topper wrote: »

TK421:

I'm glad to hear that . Why'd you move them to the doors though? I'm sure kicks will be great but since its only a 2-way setup, my biggest worry is ensuring i can still get great midbass mounted in that location.

Hi TOPPER,

1. I moved my speakers to the doors to get more mid-bass out of them. Imaging suffered. I also thought that tonality suffered.

2. From this experience and from some recent training i attended, the speaker must play in an area whose volume is at least that of the speaker's VAS.

The SR6500 has a VAS of 11 liters. Converted to cubic feet gives 0.388 (rounded to 3 dp).

You may be able to achieve this in the following manner:
1. build a kick panel enclosure with that size or larger. This is the most difficult option.

2. build the kicks to whatever your dimensions may be and then cut a hole to the rear and vent into your carpet. This makes the kicks an aperiodic enclosure and the speaker will 'see' a larger volume. Play with different size holes.

3. Vent the kicks into the car's sub-frame by utilizing any 5" or great hole that they may have behind your kicks (eg - BMW 3 series). If this does not exist then you can use a metal cutting hole-saw bit on your drill to cut out a hole. Be careful, wear eye protection and ask someone who's done it before to help if you are uncertain about anything.

tk421

candaddy wrote: »

Topper,

My install is kind of a work in progress, so it's a little pre-mature to say what the end result is/will be.

For now (they are in and playing) the mid-bass is good, not super, but in no way weak.

in my doors, i get super mid-bass. be sure to seal as much of the door as possible and also dampen the door metal. add a deflecting pad or closed cell foam behind the speaker to absorb and dissipate rear-waves.

i need ot post some pics soon. so u can get some ideas.

Topper

hey TK421 thanks a bunch for the post! It was super helpful and can't wait to get started on my build

candaddy

tk421 wrote: »

in my doors, i get super mid-bass. be sure to seal as much of the door as possible and also dampen the door metal. add a deflecting pad or closed cell foam behind the speaker to absorb and dissipate rear-waves.

i need ot post some pics soon. so u can get some ideas.

Yeah I bet it's awesome, do post pictures! I wish I could do a comparison of some kind, but I don't really have the ability to do that. I would say that my mid bass is better than average and awesome for the amount of money invested. When I said it wasn't super, I was being critical because I've heard some very high-end systems and they would be a little bit better. As my install progresses, I hope to close the gap.

Anyway, a lot of people go for the doors because of the enclosure volume and there is no arguing with that so long as the path length difference doesn't cause major phase cancellation at your ears.

tk421

hi. thanks a lot. this car audio thing is like a family. i get help from ppl al the time. so it's good to return the favour.

i could not figure out how to get the phots here, but i upped them to my myspace. here is the link:
http://tk421tt.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!805E82F30532FD07!512/

candaddy

tk421

Good job! I bet your install sounds great.

Did you use the xtc baffles to keep water off the driver, or for damping purposes? I've used these before with indeterminent results.

exalted512

Do not use the XTC baffles. It will act as a very, very crappy enclosure. Having said this, I have them in my truck, but they have been cut out to half of its original shape. GM doors leak heavily and I wanted them staying dry as possible. Cutting out the bottom and sides is a great way to keep moisture off your speaker, without the problems of using it as an enclosure.
-Cody

tk421

exalted512 wrote: »

Do not use the XTC baffles. It will act as a very, very crappy enclosure. Having said this, I have them in my truck, but they have been cut out to half of its original shape. GM doors leak heavily and I wanted them staying dry as possible. Cutting out the bottom and sides is a great way to keep moisture off your speaker, without the problems of using it as an enclosure.
-Cody

the guru is dead right :-)
the XTC pods suck! i had to keep cutting out a larger and larger section (to the bottom of course) until the speaker sounded right. it sounded ok at HALF it's original shape.

so save some money.. buy one! cut it in two and u'r ok! they're great for preventing water damage.

candaddy

That's essentially been my experience as well.