Need some help choosing an inexpensive receiver for RTis

RutgersFTW

I've been using a Panasonic SA-XR57 for the last few weeks but don't think I like it enough to keep it past its return date. It drives a set of RTi6 reasonably well (though I've heard clipping at -32... a little too low if you ask me) but chokes on RTi8s, even bi-amped. I'm hoping the amp is the culprit for my unsatisfying experience with the RTi8s, and even if it's not I'm not happy enough with the Panny to live with it for the next several years.

I've narrowed down its replacement to the following three models at or around its price, and was wondering if anyone had any experience with these receivers and could point me in the right direction:

Harman/Kardon AVR 247 for ~ $280 shipped from Harman Audio on eBay
Onkyo 605 for $285 open box from Vanns
Yamaha RX-V861 for $399

My most desired features are the ability to use the back surround channels to bi-amp and ability to grab audio over HDMI. I like that the 247 and 861 have pre-outs for all channels should I go power-crazy, but the 605s strength with TrueHD and whatnot may win the day.

Even more importantly, perhaps, I need it to be reliable and not flake out on me. I had a great Yamaha RX receiver for the last 6 years I should never have let go of but was swayed by the need for more digital i/o. I've been wary to buy Harman in the past because of perceived flakiness and though I thought Onkyo made a decent receiver the sheer amount of returns and remanufactured versions of this model give me pause.

What should I buy? Will any of these drive my RTis better than the Panny? Thanks.

tcrossma

I wouldn't make bi-amping a priority for your purchase because in a receiver there's only so much juice to go around, and using the surround-back's to bi-amp will not add anything. Focus on features, and make sure whatever you purchase has pre-outs so you can add an external amp in the future.

Good luck with the purchase.

RutgersFTW

Bi-amping won't add anything? Really? That's surprising.

I'm actually going to be running the receiver 2.0 (maybe 3.0 if I find a CSi3 or 5 for the right price) for at least a year; we were going to jump in and buy our first house but with home prices slipping around here we signed another year lease for our modest apartment. My room is 18 X 14 X 9, and as it's the only common room in the place I'm not setting up rears out of deference to my wife's desire for minimal clutter. When we do buy a home I'm going to set up a basement listening room, so pre-outs will be important as I'll want to blow the walls off daily in my private kingdom.

For now, though, I assumed there would be more juice in a stereo configuration by bi-amping and bi-wiring one of these midlevel receivers (though I don't think the H/K has the capability).

devani

He's saying that you must begin with very good receiver for bi-amp...receiver only has certain amount of power(juice) to go around....

For H/K AVR247 and mine(AVR445) the stereo configuration has higher rating than all channel driven....for AVR247 it's 65 per 2-channel or 50 per all-channel and mine(AVR445) has 80 per 2-channel and 65 all-channel...instead of going to all seven channels now it's only two...
http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC&ser=&prod=AVR%20247&sType=C
and I decided to go with LSi15 cherry(for your sale thread)...If I were you, I would get a receiver with pre-outs....and using back surround for bi-amp front is not desired and is the most discussed in here and I agree....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=885343
rear surround does not carry much information compared to Right,Left,Center channels so not much power is used for rear surrounds...
well, my .02

ViperZ

My call is definitely for HK. I like how they are built and how the manufacturer undervalues their power rating. Ran my old RT1000p's with AVR245 just recently (and using AVR510 and 520 at home) - the sound is great. HK makes RT and RTi series sound less harsh and less bright. On the other hand, Yamaha will make them unreasonably bright (from personal experience).

RutgersFTW

ViperZ wrote: »

My call is definitely for HK. I like how they are built and how the manufacturer undervalues their power rating. Ran my old RT1000p's with AVR245 just recently (and using AVR510 and 520 at home) - the sound is great. HK makes RT and RTi series sound less harsh and less bright. On the other hand, Yamaha will make them unreasonably bright (from personal experience).

I'm bidding/watching 2 AVR 247s on eBay now. If either sells for under $235, it's going to me.

If I don't get one of those H/Ks that's the Cosmos telling me to order the Yamaha. 5 year warranty, pre-outs, HDMI audio, and the ability (even if it's felt pointless here) to bi-amp my fronts (it's still better than nothing, right?). As for brightness, I used my previous Yammie with Aperion 532s and Jamo E800s, both of which tend toward brightness (I'd argue that the Aperion tweeter makes the RTi model sound liquid and mellow) and never felt fatigued. Look at the specs!

http://hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1207ape/index4.html

There's also a Pioneer VSX 1017 for $349 shipping (+tax) from New Egg or a Pioneer Elite TS-90 something or other for $449 shipped but that's really breaking my budget and neither extract audio from HDMI which is a big annoyance to me and my HD-A3 with its limited optical capabilities.

RutgersFTW

[QUOTE=devani;854787 I decided to go with LSi15 cherry[/QUOTE]

I don't blame you.

John K.

Rutgers, the 605 would be an excellent buy at that price. As far as biamping goes, true biamping with two separate amplifiers and an external crossover in front of the amplifiers replacing the internal speaker crossovers(which is very rarely done)can be of benefit, but the "biamping" that some receivers claim is meaningless. The same amount of power available in the one main power supply section that a receiver has is simply being funneled through two sets of output transistors(one being previously unused for back surrounds)instead of one; the maximum available power to a speaker isn't doubled or increased in any amount.

RutgersFTW

John K. wrote: »

Rutgers, the 605 would be an excellent buy at that price. As far as biamping goes, true biamping with two separate amplifiers and an external crossover in front of the amplifiers replacing the internal speaker crossovers(which is very rarely done)can be of benefit, but the "biamping" that some receivers claim is meaningless. The same amount of power available in the one main power supply section that a receiver has is simply being funneled through two sets of output transistors(one being previously unused for back surrounds)instead of one; the maximum available power to a speaker isn't doubled or increased in any amount.

Thanks for the helpful post. I'm all for only running one set of wires to my speakers, so to close the topic for once and for all: is there NO benefit to using a receiver's bi-amp feature?

Also - I can't find one set of my jumpers. Does Polk sell or offer replacements or should I just cut a piece of 16-awg speaker wire to fit?

I didn't win the auctions on the H/Ks so I jumped on a 605 through Amazon for $305 (+ $3.99 for one day shipping, I'm a sucker for instant gratification). I know the H/K might be better in some ways and it has pre-outs for separates, but I trust Amazon for quick, efficient returns should there be an out-of-box problem. They also had a H/K 347 for $359ish through Warehouse Deals but I couldn't justify the extra $50 or quiet concerns as to why there were so many returns on the model.

Thanks for the help everyone!

McLoki

Just to muddy the waters - there may be a small benefit to bi-amping from an AVR.

If you bi-amp from the reciever and get to agressive with the volume, the amplifier section of your reciever will clip. This is usually caused from bass (because it requires the most energy). Clipping can fry your tweeters. I do not understand the exact way it works, but clipping is often caused by to much energy required for the bass causing an energy spike to the tweeter frying it.

By putting the woofers and tweeters on separate amplifier channels, you will still hit clipping at the same volume you would have (or pretty close) but the high frequency engergy spike will not distort the sound of, nor blow your tweeter since it is not hooked up to amp that is sending the engergy spike.

I am not saying you will never blow your tweeters if they are bi-amped, but the chances of it go down. Still not worth making it a primary feature to look for imo, but a potentially worthwhile one none the less.....

Michael

RutgersFTW

So since my AVR has it and I'm not using the back surround channels, should I utilize the feature? Yes/no/utterly pointless?

McLoki

If you have the capability and extra speaker wire, all it will cost you is time. Once you hook it up, trust your ears rather that this thread to determine if it is worth keeping. (although at that point, it would be "is it bad enough that it is worth the time to take apart")

Report back and let us know what you think (either way).

Michael

mule

Not to rain on your parade, but you are making a big mistake by not buying a reciever with pre-outs.

I did the same thing and now a year later I want to get an amp but I have to start from scratch because my 604 has no pre-outs.

Spend the extra 50 or 100 bucks now and have a reciever that you can upgrade or you will end up spending another 500 to 1000 on one that you can upgrade later.

I am not a gambling man but I would bet (and I think most will agree) you will want more and cleaner power later.

RutgersFTW

mule wrote: »

Not to rain on your parade, but you are making a big mistake by not buying a reciever with pre-outs.

I did the same thing and now a year later I want to get an amp but I have to start from scratch because my 604 has no pre-outs.

Spend the extra 50 or 100 bucks now and have a reciever that you can upgrade or you will end up spending another 500 to 1000 on one that you can upgrade later.

I am not a gambling man but I would bet (and I think most will agree) you will want more and cleaner power later.

I've already accepted that if (probably when) I do decide to go power-mad, I'll just have to pick up a second-hand pre off Audiogon or craigslist... I can think of worse fates than buying and trying more audio equipment. Your point is definitely valid, but in the context of an RTi home theater I'm hoping this will be adequate, even if I swap out my fronts with (or add a zone-2 power amp for) LSi7s when they go on clearance someday.

If I still don't like the way the RTi8s sound with this set-up I'm going to keep trying to sell them or see if someone wants to trade me for a pair of RTi4, RTi6, RTi A1, or RTi A3. I really really love the way the bookshelf RTi series sound. I haven't heard the 10s, 12s, or any of the A towers, but my experience with the bookshelves tells me my money is better spent on an SVS sub then the bigger speaks. And with bookshelves in my future, I shouldn't need tons of power.

RutgersFTW

McLoki wrote: »

If you have the capability and extra speaker wire, all it will cost you is time. Once you hook it up, trust your ears rather that this thread to determine if it is worth keeping. (although at that point, it would be "is it bad enough that it is worth the time to take apart")

Report back and let us know what you think (either way).

Michael

You're right about the time part. I've got them bi-wired/amped now through the Panny and it took half and hour to stuff the bare 12awg wire into those tiny openings. I was covered in sweat from kneeling and feeling really out of shape by the time it was done. I'll probably just keep them bi-amped through the Onkyo since I've run the cabling, but I'm buying a separate audio tower in a few weeks to get some ventilation for my poor equipment, and then I'll put the jumpers back on the speakers and see if there's an appreciable difference.

I thought I read something about bypassing the speakers' crossover networks by hooking them up this way, which is potentially a good thing...? I don't have the know-how or high-end equipment to test this stuff out for real but even if it's only a placebo, if my ears think it's better then I'll keep doing it, darn it.

dholmes

I just ordered the Onkyo 805 at Onecall for 700.00 it will go in my living room & just got the Integra dtc 9.8 for my HT .Now I just need to get rid of my old Denon 4800

RutgersFTW

It's a good time to buy Onkyo x05 receivers apparently, what with the new beasts coming out.

Incidentally, vis a vis bi-wiring with the Panasonic - I switched the option to "off" and put the jumpers back on the RTi8 and somehow they actually sound better now. Maybe the receiver's power supply can't hack it in bi-mode. I'll give it a shot with the Oink but I'm definitely convinced it's a non-sequitor when it comes to receivers, if not detrimental.

hydrostream

Go for the pre outs , Because it never ends trust me i've been
there. Adding a amp is priceless my HT setup started with a onkyo
540 with a RTi setup with RTi8s for fronts not very happy with that
then i got a 805 the movies were great but my music sucked and now
i added a adcom GFA-555 and it rocks. Plan for the future from the
begining.
jerry