Lets's talk phono preamps!

hearingimpared

I'm am currently using a Spectral DMC Gamma. It allows 6 resisitve loads for MC setups and two custom loads. I permits separate channel gain adjustments from 50dB to 75 dB.

For the MM stage it permits various capacitive loads a well as resistive loads.

It has three inputs; 1,, phono input, 2. aux input 3, tape loop.

THis is one of the top three pieces of gear in my rig.

I was wondering if anyone had experience with this piece of gear or better.

analog97

Joe, the Spectral you have is a pre-amp with a built-in phono pre-amp, right? That's supposed to be a fine piece of gear! I have not heard it. I am using a Hagerman Audio Cornet2, a 4-tube phono pre-amp built with all premium parts and upgraded Auricap capacitors. Currently, I also use the Hagerman Piccolo, a MC head amp with adjustable loading and gain. I give this combo my highest recommendation under $3,000. Love to comapre it to the Spectral.

hearingimpared

Your statement is true however, the Spectral was built when vinyl was king and the only other formats to compete (and I don't mean sonically) was the cassesstte deck. Spectral put a tape loop on for strickly convienience and did the same with the aux port so that someone could run a tuner trhougfh it.

It was made (over 5 years in the making) for the winner n still chanpion as a phono pre.

Larryy how the shims working out?

analog97

Joe,

That Spectral was well-engineered. I can't think of another pre-amp at that time that had so many loading and gain options. You are lucky to have that on your shelf!! Re:shims.......still experimenting with what you sent, basically 3 Delrin shims of different thicknesses. I've tried a few heavy vinyl slabs and some regular vinyl and some really thin LP's. I have found that the Delrin shims do a better job of "Vinyl Zen", i.e. making the Delrin TNT platter and the LP as "one". It makes sense to think of it this way, because the Delrin shims make direct contact with the Delrin platter whereas the rubber washer acts to isolate at least part of the record from the mass of the TT. Sonically, the Delrin adds more clarity and presence (I hate audiophile words)!! :) Thanks again and my apologies for stepping on your thread, but you asked!!:D

billbillw

I am currently just using the built in one in my AVR, BUT, I have been working on one of these for a while now.

http://www.passdiy.com/projects/pearlono1.htm

I have all the boards soldered, the main boards are mounted in a nice steel case, the external power supply is almost finished, but I have to mount the IEC connector, torroid, and drill a big **** hole to mount some DIN connectors for r/l channel power umbilicals. Also need to wiring everything to RCAs, etc. Its been sitting for a couple months because I've been too busy with other stuff. I can't wait to finally hear it though. I'm just about caught up with all the household projects, so maybe I'll get'er done soon.

Its pretty amazing really. This little phono amp will have over 50,000uF of capacitance PER CHANNEL when finished!!! That's more than most heavyweight amps I know.


This picture is for one channel.
Each of those tall caps are 10,000uF. Each of the 4 smaller ones are 3,300.uF Plus, the power supply has another 10,000uF per channel.
According to the write-ups, it should compete favorably with some of the well known phono stages in the $2k range.

hearingimpared

AS much as I am emotionaly attachd to the Spectral I really would like to get some really good phono preamps in my rig to give the old A/B.

Spectral, hard to beat however new technology I think really has come a long long way,'

I would like to try the Manley Stealhead but I don' want to get divorced.

george daniel

Joe,, I'm in the same "boat" as you,, I've got a dynavector 20 xl lo with a dyna P-75 in the enhanced mode with my scout,,while I'm happy with it,I too, was wondering if there is anything out there that is reasonably priced,that would make a audible difference. I was looking at a level 2 modded Jolida,,the Graham Slee,and one by Whest.I'd like to find one that is also easy to set up/dial in,that allows for in-home evaluation. From what I've read about the Spectral,,it's pretty top notch,,still think though ,I've got a "decent" front end,,that there has to be something to step up to,without taking out a second mortgage.

Add to that the PS audio phono pre as well.

analog97

George and Joe.....you guys have it right. I don't want to go broke either in this hobby. That's one reason I built my phono pre-amp. That Hagerman Cornet2 can be built for $600 using the Auricaps and other upgraded parts. The Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in with audio investment. For example, we all have VPI tables, good carts (except Joe....he's got a friggin' awesome one) and large SDA's. For analog sound reproduction, the biggest bangs for the buck are in the TT, phono pre and cartridge. I have the VPI MkIV (RB300), Cornet2, Denon 103 and Piccolo head amp front-end. This front-end (with a MkIV or Scout) can be had for under 3K. My experience suggests that beating this rig will be hard to do. Besting it w/o BIG BUCKS is simply not realistic. I think all of our rigs are getting about 90% of what can be had. I also think the remaining 10% is 50% illusion (or delusion). ;)

"Don't bother me with the facts. My mind is made up."

SCompRacer

I've been through several phono pre amps Joe and the ModWright phono stage does it for me.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1213551168

http://www.modwright.com/products/index.php?product_id=24

SCompRacer

I nearly forgot about this JFET SS phono pre. The InnerSound iPhono, AKA Coda 03p. They pop up on the 'gon every now and then ~$800.

These were designed/built while sub mV cartridges were emerging. I might have kept it but the gain was low (57dB) for cartridges in the .3mV range. The 03p had 37dB of gain with a 20 db boost switch. If I had a balanced pre amp it would have been fine, as using balanced out on the 03p would net another 9dB of gain for a total of 66dB.

Coda later came out with an 06p that offered more gain than the 03p.

hearingimpared

SCompRacer wrote: »

I've been through several phono pre amps Joe and the ModWright phono stage does it for me.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1213551168

http://www.modwright.com/products/index.php?product_id=24

Rich you know I love you and you are one of my all time favorite people here and one of the most knoweldgeable, but you said,"ModWright phono stage does it for me"

What exactly does it do for you as compared to the othere phono pre amps under $5K?

SCompRacer

I love you too bud! Thanks for the kind words Joe but I ain’t that smart. I just tried a lot of gear until I hit a winning combo for myself.

I have the SWLP 9.0SE which is the SWP9.0 phono stage built into the SWL9.0SE pre amp with an external tube regulated power supply. It is filled with ModWrights signature Teflon film/foil and metalized oil-impregnated polypropylene capacitors. Some reviewers and owners speak very highly of his phono stage.

I have had other phono stages provide detail but they sounded lean, thin, sterile. Some were too warm for my taste. Some had a high noise floor. The ModWright sound is between tubes and SS. I have to agree with Dan and/or some reviewers when they say it gives the music body and weight without sacrificing detail, dynamics or resolution. It was great before, but after my recent arm upgrade, vinyl sure gets my pulse racing now. Compared to my most amusing ModWright 9100ES, my vinyl is more nuanced and richer than digital. But I still enjoy listening to both.

It is a quiet stage too. At our Chicago land Polk Fest, I cranked the volume knob to 3 o’clock with no music playing to demonstrate a tube pre amp with tube phono stage doesn’t have to hiss at you. I am never past 12 o’clock playing vinyl, and that gives me ~90-95dB.

mhardy6647

These were designed/built while sub mV cartridges were emerging.

Let's see, how long has Denon been making the DL-103? At least since the 1970s. Maybe you mean re-emerging? :-)

schwarcw

George,

I gotta tell you that Larry's Hagerman phono pre was extremely impressive. Smooth sounding, detailed with nice depth to the soundstage. I know you are handy with the soldering iron and as Larry (Analog97) indicated the kit will run about $600. Here is a link to the Coronet2, look Here.

I haven't heard Rich (current configuration) or Joe's phono rigs, I owe them both a visit this Summer.

Ricardo

I am using the phono stage in my Belles 28A. Using a Benz Ace MC cartridge. There's an option of loading with different resistor values, but I just don't want to mess with it...it sounds pretty good to my ears so better leave it alone.

mhardy6647

FWIW, I use Doc Bottlehead's Seduction MM phono preamp; equipped with Amperex 6922s. I am very happy with it; I don't think you'll find better sound for the money.

Here's a snapshot of the innards of my very early version, after I finally replaced the original power transformer with the shielded one.

SCompRacer

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Let's see, how long has Denon been making the DL-103? At least since the 1970s. Maybe you mean re-emerging? :-)

Actually since the early '60's in broadcast markets. Perhaps I should have added the word technology with emerging. There are still folks who think MC's are less-than-natural sounding. Maybe the ex-Threshold engineers didn't think all low output MC's were worthy or that popular at first? Was it the conical stylus or improper matching of step up transformers that caused folks to think the DL-103 lacked body or had a sibilant bloom? I dunno...

Carl, it would be great to have you here again. I am making steady progress becoming whole again.

hearingimpared

Ricardo wrote: »

I am using the phono stage in my Belles 28A. Using a Benz Ace MC cartridge. There's an option of loading with different resistor values, but I just don't want to mess with it...it sounds pretty good to my ears so better leave it alone.

IMHO not loading your cartridge with the load it runs best at is like using zip cord on Wilson Watt Puppys when there is much much better cable matches for the Pups. Learn how to do it. It really is easy and you won't believe what you are missing by keeping it a manufacturers setting.

analog97

There are 3 Benz Ace MC carts, each with a different loading recommendation. Maybe Ricardo is using the Ace (high), in which case a 47K loading is fine and dandy. If not, the loading should be set lower. ;) It will sound better!!

hearingimpared

Welll I really would like to compare the old gal to some of the new phono pre amps and am planning to do so when all the money that disappeared lately come home.:D:rolleyes:

hearingimpared

analog97 wrote: »

There are 3 Benz Ace MC carts, each with a different loading recommendation. Maybe Ricardo is using the Ace (high), in which case a 47K loading is fine and dandy. If not, the loading should be set lower. ;) It will sound better!!

Bingo on the high out put carts but I still stand by my opinion on trying differing resistive loading regardless and capicitive loading for MM cartridges.

Ricardo

I have the medium Ace, 0.8 mV. So what loading would you recommend I try?

hearingimpared

Ricardo wrote: »

I have the medium Ace, 0.8 mV. So what loading would you recommend I try?

Ric it depends on your cart and pre. My pre goes from 10, 30, 100, 800, 47K, and two sockets for custom resistors. My cart sounds best at 100 ohms. 10,30 ohms sounded like mush, 800, 47K ohms sounded like I had it on a PA system JBL speaker.

I actually have the 800 ohm and 100 in parallel which gives me 88.89 Ohms which is absolute perfect for this cart.

analog97

The Benz Ace (medium) calls for loading above 200 ohms. So, I'd recommend trying loading from 47K downwards to 200 ohms. If you're gonna just set it and not try to get a sweet point, set it at 500 ohms. The nice feature of the Hagerman Piccolo MC head-amp is that you can change loading "on the fly" so you can IMMEDIATELY hear any subtle differences. That's a great feature because our ear-brains are stupid after a while, but hearing an instantaneous difference is a lot easier. Good luck.:)

hearingimpared

analog97 wrote: »

The Benz Ace (medium) calls for loading above 200 ohms. So, I'd recommend trying loading from 47K downwards to 200 ohms. If you're gonna just set it and not try to get a sweet point, set it at 500 ohms. The nice feature of the Hagerman Piccolo MC head-amp is that you can change loading "on the fly" so you can IMMEDIATELY hear any subtle differences. That's a great feature because our ear-brains are stupid after a while, but hearing an instantaneous difference is a lot easier. Good luck.:)

Every time I read something you write concerning phono pre I always get an urge to buy a Hagerman Piccolo MC head-amp !!! I've done alot of reading on that piece and it really does seem to perform.

mhardy6647

SCompRacer wrote: »

Actually since the early '60's in broadcast markets. Perhaps I should have added the word technology with emerging. There are still folks who think MC's are less-than-natural sounding. Maybe the ex-Threshold engineers didn't think all low output MC's were worthy or that popular at first? Was it the conical stylus or improper matching of step up transformers that caused folks to think the DL-103 lacked body or had a sibilant bloom? I dunno...

Carl, it would be great to have you here again. I am making steady progress becoming whole again.

Interestingly, Joe Grado invented the moving coil cartridge.
They are probably a little hyper-natural sounding, if one's objective about it; with that extra-luscious midrange. Sort of like teeny-tiny Altec VOTTs in your LP groove.

http://www.gradolabs.com/reviews/stm_4.htm
(not that Joe was apparently too proud of his invention)

analog97

Every time I read something you write concerning phono pre I always get an urge to buy a Hagerman Piccolo MC head-amp !!! I've done alot of reading on that piece and it really does seem to perform.

Yes, Joe. The Piccolo does perform nicely! BUT (not to be confused with a big butt), is the Piccolo BETTER than your K&K with the Lundahl transformers? I would say yes and no to that question. You have a stellar transformer. It made the Stereophile Recommended Components last month. There is a reason for that! I think it equal to the K&K you have and has the nice feature of adjustable loading "on the fly" as I mentioned. But, again a but.....once you decide on the optimal loading for a given MC cart, why bother adjusting? It's good for a demo to others, so they can hear the difference between running a say Denon 103 wide open at 47K ohms as compared with recommended loading at 40-50 ohms. I think it's ideal a a device to help you quickly decide what loading works best. You know, by the time most people take their cases apart and switch jumpers, etc....a lot of "immediate" comparison time is lost. Some folks are lucky because their phono pre's make it easier to switch loading. I think if you spend $7,300 on the Manley Steelhead, you can chane loading with the remote.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

hearingimpared

analog97 wrote: »

But, again a but.....once you decide on the optimal loading for a given MC cart, why bother adjusting? It's good for a demo to others, so they can hear the difference between running a say Denon 103 wide open at 47K ohms as compared with recommended loading at 40-50 ohms.

Great write up Larry, to answer the bolded question I have this answer for you; "because there are nimrods (me) out there that have to have things for instance as you mentioned above, the K & K transformer. I had to adjust the transformer to look like a resistor load on a preamp of 88.88 ohms. After that nightmare, I had to set the Spectral MC section to 47K ohms because that is what the typical stepup trannies us.

Now do you understand?:D

analog97

"because there are nimrods (me) out there that have to have things for instance as you mentioned above, the K & K transformer. I had to adjust the transformer to look like a resistor load on a preamp of 88.88 ohms. After that nightmare, I had to set the Spectral MC section to 47K ohms because that is what the typical stepup trannies us.

Dear Mr. Nimrod,

I think I understand what you did. I never did what you did. I like to avoid nightmares. It's so much easier when you have a Piccolo. You just rotate a knob. That's my cup o' tea....:):):)

Again, I suggest you kick back, heal up and enjoy your dialed-in Spectral, as fed by an awesome cartridge! As for me, I am thinking about opening a new Doors Box set (they FINALLY got shipped!!!)

BTW, still trying to find the best shim for heavy vinyl. So far, I'm using the "middle" thickness and think it best.

schwarcw

analog97 wrote: »

As for me, I am thinking about opening a new Doors Box set (they FINALLY got shipped!!!)

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Ricardo

analog97 wrote: »

The Benz Ace (medium) calls for loading above 200 ohms. So, I'd recommend trying loading from 47K downwards to 200 ohms. If you're gonna just set it and not try to get a sweet point, set it at 500 ohms. The nice feature of the Hagerman Piccolo MC head-amp is that you can change loading "on the fly" so you can IMMEDIATELY hear any subtle differences. That's a great feature because our ear-brains are stupid after a while, but hearing an instantaneous difference is a lot easier. Good luck.:)

Ok; sorry if I sound like I'm stupid...but exactly how do I do this? I have a bunch of resistors that can be used for loading.....like 1 ohm, 10 ohm, 50 ohm......what exactly would I be doing if I use, say a 10 ohm resistor load?

Thanks.