pairing with Lsi9s: bi-amp or subwoofer?

Norm Apter

In the last two months, I've purchased a pair of Lsi9s, Yamaha RX-797
2-channel Receiver, and a Marantz CD-5001 CD player. Of course, this set up is used only for music, not Home-Theater.

The Yamaha has a high-current amplifier and is rated at 100 wpc @ 8-ohms, but this model of course has a 4-ohm setting for the Lsi9s. Yamaha doesn't do tests at 4-ohms though so I don't have an exact figure of wpc when it is set at 4-ohms (I've been quoted that it would bump up to about 140-160 wpc @ 4 ohms. Thus, perhaps I could say, for simplicity sake, that it is making use of 75% of the capability of the Lsi9s (rated at 200 wpc). No complaints. I'm very satisfied with the sound, but still wondering if I can make more use of the Lsi9s without breaking the bank. Its not a question of loudness. This system is located in a medium-sized bedroom and I rarely have to turn up the volume beyond the 9 o'clock position and almost never beyond the 10 o'clock position. But I'm still wondering if I'm getting the most out of my speaker. Fortunately, the Yamaha receiver has a place for connecting a powered subwoofer as well as connections for bi-amping and can be set up for adding another amp (to bi-amp) or bypassing the receiver's amplifier altogether, I believe. (http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?showAll=N&g=10420&i=022RX797&tp=179 You can click on "more photos" and then zoom in on the back side to see the available connections).

For hypothetical purposes, lets say I have a budget of $600. I am wondering if it would make more sense to purchase a separate amp for bi-amping or to purchase powered sub. I know that many people on this forum have amps that run $2000 and w/o that kind of budget, I'm obviously not looking to have the best set up on the block. I just want to do what I can to further bring out the potential of the Lsi9s. Again, this is all just for music-listening purposes, not movies.

If you have any suggestions for either separate amps (even if they run over $600 but certainly no more than 1k) or a particular brand/model subwoofer that works wells with the Lsi9s, please let me know.

Many thanks in advance,

Norm

AudioFilet

I have my 9's connected to an Outlaw RR 2150, rated at 165wpc @ 4ohms. I use the pre-outs connected to an Outlaw ICBM to drive my sub. It's nice beacuse I can adjust the crossover point & sub volume right there at the ICBM controls. I'm not familiar with the Yamaha you have, but I think you would be pretty happy with some sort of subwoofer setup rather than spending a bunch of money on more amps.

garnier

I am a polkie myself and just purchased a Outlaw amp and LSi9's for HT.
I got Outlaw because Emotiva wasn't available for another one or two months and Outlaw was internet-based company and so, affordable compared to others.
If you decide to bi-amp your set-up in the end, then I recommend getting two $325 Outlaw Model 2200 M-block amp for about $650 total, one for each of your LSi9, because they output 300 wpc just like my 7-channel amp, and mine really sounds like a movie theatre!
But of course, adding a powered subwoofer, in addition to bi-amping, would definitely benefit too. If I had to choose between bi-amping and a subwoofer, yes, I would go for a subwoofer for now, because they say that adding a subwoofer is one way to get the most for one's money spent. I recommend Velodyne DLS (Distortion Limiting System)-4000R 12" subwoofer 200 RMS/400 Dynamic Power watts with digital signal processing for about $600.

John K.

Norm, you may be under the misconception that setting your 797 to 4 ohms optimizes it for use with your LSi9s or at least increases the maximum power that would be available to them; actually the result is the opposite. The lower impedance setting is a fire safety related feature required because of UL(Underwriters Laboratory)temperature testing. It reduces the maximum voltage that the amplifier can output, and because of Ohm's Law, when the maximum voltage is reduced so is the maximum current and power(as much as 50%). So the chance of overheating is reduced, but so is the maximum performance capability. To get the roughly 50% increase in maximum output capacity which your 797 is capable of at 4 ohms compared to the 8 ohm rating, leave it set at 8 ohms.

Unless a full biamping setup with separate amplifiers and an external crossover(removing or bypassing the crossover in the speakers) in front of the amplifiers is done, biamping isn't of significant benefit. Use of your money for a sub would be far more cost-effective. In addition to the Polk subs in that price range you might also consider other fine units, such as those from Hsu.

Norm Apter

Thanks for you post, John. I think I probably will go with the sub, first.

But can you explain in a nutshell what "crossovers" are? I see this term used frequently on forums such as this one but don't really know what they denote? Second, what does removing or bypassing the crossover entail? Does that mean cracking open the speaker and thus nullifying my 5-year warranty? I wouldn't want to try to that as I am don't have knowledge of this sort of thing. But I would definately like to know a little more about it.

Norm Apter

Garnier, thanks for you post too. I also have a question or two for you.

You mentioned these two Outlaw amps at 300 wpc each, hooking one up to each speaker. I'm a little confused about wpc ratings. As I far as I know, the Lsi9s are 200 wpc. Doesn't that mean I should stick to amps with an upper limit of 200 wpc, for fear of damaging the speakers? If I'm missing something here, please let me know. Also, would you mind providing me with a link to Outlaw's web site, just so I could check them out for the future. Though I will probably first go with the sub, as I mentioned above.

Second, I hadn't heard of the brand Velodyne. Where would I find such subs? On-line? At retailers?

Thanks.

mightymouse

If you want to bi-amp, you'd better use 2 identical amps. But most of the time it's always better to get a single more powerful amp than to bi-amp using 2 less powerful amps.

You are using your 9's in a bedroom. What do you feel is missing? Not enough bass? Because that would be the only reason to get a sub. I have my 9's setup in a medium sized living room, mono amped, no sub. There is plenty bass for me.

mightymouse

Before rushing out to buy more expensive stuff, ask yourself, what do you feel is missing in your current setup. If everything sounds good to your ears, there is no sense in rushing out to spend extra money.

pearsall001

Add a quality sub & you won't believe your ears. It's not about the quanity of bass but rather the quality. By adding a sub & starting out with the crossover in your Yammie at 80Hz you are in fact bi-amping. Now the Yammie is only supplying power to the 80Hz signal & up. Your LSi9's will shine & kick out music like you never heard before. Now the sub is supplying power to the 80Hz & below signal.

By relieving your speakers of having to struggle to produce proper bass (monitors & towers alike), the music now takes on a whole new dimension.

Sub=money well spent!!

garnier

Hi, Norm Apter.
I asked these people the exact same question regarding recommended amp power for the LSi9's in fear of too much power damaging the speakers.
Check out this link that was discussed not too long ago.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66438
The answer is: No, it won't damage your speakers by having an amp that has higher than recommended speaker amp power, because LSi9's or any speakers are capable of handling up to four times their peak power at any given moment. I don't know LSi's peak power but I am sure it is higher than 200; so it should be able to handle at least 200 times 4 = 800 wpc.

And Velodyne is a pretty famous Subwoofer manufacturer. You can get one from authorized dealers such as B&H or Crutchfield, among other places that you can find at Google.

Outlaw mono amp link is:
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html

I noticed with my set-up that if your neighbor is not a problem so that you can turn up the volume of a subwoofer to match with your LSi9's using your autocalibration system of a receiver, then you can set a HPF at 80 Hz for LSi9's and LPF also at 80 Hz for the subwoofer.
But if you have to think about not disturbing your neighbors like in my case, I think setting the HPF of LSi9's at 60 Hz (because -3 db point for LSi9 is 50 Hz, meaning that at 50 Hz the speaker has lost its effectiveness in producing the sound in that frequency range, and the volume of the speaker is lowered by 3 db) would make you hear sounds that you wouldn't hear from a subwoofer if you have to turn down the volume of a subwoofer (you would still notice a difference of having a sub even if you have to lower the volume of a sub compared to not having one) lower than that of LSi9's in terms of tonality (i.d. lower than whatever your receiver calibration system sets on, because it might be too 'house-shaking' considering your neighbor). Here is another link that I asked these people less than a week ago, regarding crossover points for LSi9's:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66913

I hope these would help you set up a better stereo system!

Gaara

Mightymouse, nice posts, you seem to learn very quickly. I concur, one better quality amp would be much better then two lower quality ones. I have tried passive bi-amping with my LSi7s and found a slight improvement, comparatively spending the same amount of $ on a nicer 2ch amp it was a big improvement.

I was always impressed with the bass output on the 9s. I ran mine sans sub for music. Depending on what type of music you listen to there may not be a large benefit going with a seperate sub, I know for my musical tastes there wasn't. Case in point, my current speakers for my PC rig dig as deep as the 9s did. I got a Martin Logan Grotto sub, a quality sub for around $600. It made a improvement, but it didn't get enough use to justify keeping it and I sold it a month later.

mightymouse

Thanks Gaara! Learned a lot from you.:D

Gaara wrote: »

Mightymouse, nice posts, you seem to learn very quickly.

Norm Apter

I think I might first go with the sub (either Velodyne or HSU), but eventually, some time down the road, would probably go with a more powerful amp. Garnier has suggested two outlaw amps.

But in order to get a few more suggestions of a good single amp with the Lsi9s, would Mightymouse and Gaara mind letting me ,know what amp you find works well with the Lsi9s.

BTW, my musical tastes range from jazz (1950s and 1960s) to classic and college rock (no rap). So, no I don't need the thunderous lows for rap, but it might just be about bringing better definition to those lows and, as Pearsall mentioned, freeing up the speakers to concentrate on everything 80hz and above???

Norm Apter

And thanks again, Garnier, you posts and links are spot-in in terms of what I need at this point. I appreciate it.

mightymouse

Gaara has a Cinenova amp for sale in the for sale section. It's quite a nice amp. Take a look.

I think your Yamaha already has preouts (double check), so you don't need a separate preamp.

Parasound, adcomm, etc., all make some very nice amps.

Take a look at ebay as well as audiogon.

Gaara

You should stick with your original response, the Parasound Halo A23 is a excellent match for LSi9s and you should be able to get it for <$600. I compared many brands of amps with my LSi9s a while back, they include B&K, Adcom, Parasound, ATI, and Earthquake. My #1 was my Earthquake Cinenova Grande, #2 by a small margin was the A23.

A couple more to look into would be B&K 125.2 and a NHT Power2 if you can find it.

Then again you may consider just selling the Yamaha if you are going to spend the $ on a separate amp. You could get a really nice integrated instead or perhaps separates, lots of possibilities.

pearsall001

Let's forget Krell. One marvelous amp. Those LSi9's would be smiling big time.

steveinaz

John K. wrote: »

Unless a full biamping setup with separate amplifiers and an external crossover(removing or bypassing the crossover in the speakers) in front of the amplifiers is done, biamping isn't of significant benefit. Use of your money for a sub would be far more cost-effective. In addition to the Polk subs in that price range you might also consider other fine units, such as those from Hsu.

^ +1 Agree. I think John is spot-on.