SDA effect

Neskahi
Neskahi Posts: 297
edited April 2008 in 2 Channel Audio
Could it be: that the SDA effect is actually disorienting when "initially" sitting down for a listening session? And does our brain and or senses have to "adjust" to what some reviews have called trickery in the science of SDA's? I ask this because it seems to take a while[20 min.] to pick up on the sound stage and depth with my SDA's. Always wondered if this might be a fair assessment of
SDA's and the forum is not exactly smokin tonight so I thought I would ask.
SDA 2.3/RDO's... xovers by Ben
SDA 2.3TL/Stock..
SDA 1C/Solens/RDO's [gave to my Uncle]
SDA 2B RDO's
Snell Type CV
SDA 1.2TL's
GFA7700 Adcom
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TFM55X Carver
M90 Pioneer/C90 Pre
M91 x 2 Pioneers/C91 Pre
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  • Neskahi
    Neskahi Posts: 297
    edited March 2008
    Even after amps have warmed up.
    SDA 2.3/RDO's... xovers by Ben
    SDA 2.3TL/Stock..
    SDA 1C/Solens/RDO's [gave to my Uncle]
    SDA 2B RDO's
    Snell Type CV
    SDA 1.2TL's
    GFA7700 Adcom
    GFP750 Adcom
    TFM55X Carver
    M90 Pioneer/C90 Pre
    M91 x 2 Pioneers/C91 Pre
    Yaqin MC10l
    DCD-1520/1560/2560 Denon
    Marantz DVD-8400
    Carver m1.5T
    DV-79avi Pioneer
    TFM35X x 2
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited March 2008
    Placement is key. I never feel that it takes time for the SDA effect to actually come in to effect. The only ones that did that had a dimensional tweeter, and never cleaned up till I reworked the XO, and disabled the dimensional tweeter.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,557
    edited March 2008
    Could it be: that the SDA effect is actually disorienting when "initially" sitting down for a listening session?

    Nope. Sounds 100% right to me each and every time.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • BaggedLancer
    BaggedLancer Posts: 6,371
    edited March 2008
    There is no such thing as the "SDA Effect."
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited March 2008
    It is an effect.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited March 2008
    ....that IME is present from start to finish.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,557
    edited March 2008
    It is NOT an effect.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited March 2008
    Whatever makes you feel better.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,557
    edited March 2008
    Doesn't make me feel better, makes my music sound real. Nothing else comes as close.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • MillerLiteScott
    MillerLiteScott Posts: 2,561
    edited March 2008
    I am also in the "it's NOT and effect" camp.

    My take on it is that is more of a time correction based on how humans hear sounds.

    That's all.

    Scott
    I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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  • Jonesy
    Jonesy Posts: 189
    edited March 2008
    I'm probably way in over my head here but what the hell.....

    I would likely fall into the "it's an effect" camp. Everything in the chain is an effect. If you are listening to Led Zeppelin, 'Houses of the Holy' as I am now, you are hearing an effect. If you were listening to Led Zeppelin play any track off 'Houses of the Holy' live you were hearing an effect. I'm no Satriani but I've played guitar enough to know that most players use a combination of string>pick>pick-up>amp>pedal/rack-mount processor to achieve a certain 'sound'. That is an "effect".

    That said I believe there is nothing wrong with 'effects'. If the SDA 'effect' blows your skirt up, great. I am hoping to have my skirt blown up sometime soon and get into a pair of SDA's. That said, let the flames cut loose, as I've obviously never heard a pair of SDA's. I do, however, believe in the logic laid out above. It's all an 'effect'. I want the SDA 'effect'!

    With that said.....stomp the novice. :)
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  • Stew
    Stew Posts: 645
    edited March 2008
    MillerLiteScott wrote: »
    a time correction based on how humans hear sounds.

    +1
    SDA's don't add any effect. They remove a time based distortion that's inherent to conventional speakers.
    SDA 2B-TL (Sonicap/Solen/Mills, Erse Super Q, Rings, Spikes, No-Rez)
    1000VA Dreadnought
    Dared SL-2000a (Siemens & Halske TM 12AT7WA's, Brimar 5Z4G)
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    RTiA3, Onkyo TX-SR605
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2008
    Neskahi wrote: »
    Could it be: that the SDA effect is actually disorienting when "initially" sitting down for a listening session? And does our brain and or senses have to "adjust" to what some reviews have called trickery in the science of SDA's? I ask this because it seems to take a while[20 min.] to pick up on the sound stage and depth with my SDA's. Always wondered if this might be a fair assessment of
    SDA's and the forum is not exactly smokin tonight so I thought I would ask.

    No absolutely not. The way SDA's reproduce music is much more natural than stereo. It corrects aural sensory that regular stereo can't reproduce. If you read the white paper on how SDA's work you'd get what I'm saying.

    Some may need to adjust, but the adjustment is from the unnatural (stereo) to the more natural innteraural crosstalk cancellation.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2008
    http://www.polkaudio.com/downloads/whitepapers/SDA_WhitePaper.pdf
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2008
    Face wrote: »
    http://www.polkaudio.com/downloads/whitepapers/SDA_WhitePaper.pdf

    That's a great start but the White Paper I was referring to was the original one published in Audio magazine June/1984. There is a reprint in the SDA compendium but I've never seen it online.

    The White Paper on the Surround Bar is a good read but the original SDA white paper has a lot more detail and explanation. If one is really interested I'm sure you get a copy from your local library.

    Audio Magazine- June 1984.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • MillerLiteScott
    MillerLiteScott Posts: 2,561
    edited March 2008
    Stew wrote: »
    +1
    SDA's don't add any effect. They remove a time based distortion that's inherent to conventional speakers.


    Actually, if I understand correctly. SDA's remove a time based distortion that's inherent with the shape of the human head and position of our ears.
    I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited March 2008
    it's not an effect, it's a sound field more than anything.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2008
    Effect is really the wrong word. It's a scientific process much like stereo. No one calls stereo an effect when comparing it to mono. Atleast I don't.

    SDA's set up properly have such a natural sound to them. Certainly more realistic to real world sound than stereo. The auditory cues with SDA's playing are much more realistic than stereo.

    We have become so accustomed to stereo that sometimes it's hard to change gears and for some the SDA's sound foreign when they actually are more realistic to how we hear things around us in the real world.

    Neither is perfect and recordings and the process used to record some things gets in the way sometimes. But when everything falls into place listening to SDA's it's a great experience.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited March 2008
    Two definitions of effect:
    5: power to bring about a result
    7 a: a distinctive impression

    If we use that, then SDA is an effect. In the end, it doesn't matter what you call it, the technology and experience is the same.
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  • Stew
    Stew Posts: 645
    edited March 2008
    When we hear a live sound, it reaches the nearest ear first followed by the other ear a very short time later. Our brains use this time delay, among other things, to locate the source of the sound. When that live sound is recorded and reproduced, conventional speakers add an extra time delayed sound known as interaural crosstalk (the "distortion" I referred to earlier). SDA's simply cancel this extra time delayed sound thus restoring our ability to interpret spatial cues. No effect.
    SDA 2B-TL (Sonicap/Solen/Mills, Erse Super Q, Rings, Spikes, No-Rez)
    1000VA Dreadnought
    Dared SL-2000a (Siemens & Halske TM 12AT7WA's, Brimar 5Z4G)
    Jolida JD-100a (Sylvania BP TM Gold Brand 5751's), NAD C275BEE, Blue Jeans

    RTiA3, Onkyo TX-SR605
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited March 2008
    It's the spatial effect of live performers from a fixed number of point sources. It is caused by the use of SDA technology with the intent of a specific impression. Cause and effect.

    Can we please just move on to what we personally enjoy.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited March 2008
    We'll never agree on the semantics of it all but I seriously doubt anyone stopped enjoying anything in the first place.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2008
    dorokusai wrote: »
    We'll never agree on the semantics of it all but I seriously doubt anyone stopped enjoying anything in the first place.

    That is a true statement.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited March 2008
    Im thinking the word "enhancement" would be more suitable than effect?
    Testing
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited March 2008
    Ok, I could care less one way or another as to whether it is an effect or not. In fact this thread may be a result of my other thread about the "SDA effect" I heard at the last mini-Charlotte PF so if you want, spank me. I am to blame.

    The thing is that it sure is a whole lot easier to say "SDA effect" than it is to say " The SDA correction of the inherent problem that all other conventional speakers suffer from. When we hear a live sound, it reaches the nearest ear first followed by the other ear a very short time later. Our brains use this time delay, among other things, to locate the source of the sound. When that live sound is recorded and reproduced, conventional speakers add an extra time delayed sound known as inter-aural crosstalk . SDA's simply cancel this extra time delayed sound thus restoring our ability to interpret spatial cues."

    So, after the spanking is done....how would you refer to the SDA "fill-in-the-blank" as the commonly misquoted "SDA effect" without going on with a paragraph as to what the SDA "whatever" is?


    Treitz3
    SDA History Infidel
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited March 2008
    The "effect" comment is WAY before you Tom.....don't feel bad.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited March 2008
    GV#27 wrote: »
    Im thinking the word "enhanchment" would be more suitable than effect?

    Na. That makes me think of ****.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited March 2008
    GV#27 wrote: »
    Im thinking the word "enhanchment" would be more suitable than effect?

    I read enchantment the first time.
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited March 2008
    ///\\\
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • mmadden28
    mmadden28 Posts: 4,283
    edited March 2008
    treitz3 wrote: »
    So, after the spanking is done....how would you refer to the SDA "fill-in-the-blank" as the commonly misquoted "SDA effect" without going on with a paragraph as to what the SDA "whatever" is?

    How about SDA technology as its referred to in the whitepaper?

    What does the "E" in LFE stand for again? And what Effects are sent to the sub? Special Effects or just certain frequencies? I am thinking "Effect" can have multiple meanings here as in the rest of this discussion.

    Check out The wiktionary site here on "effect", specifically the filmology entry (#2), and the sound engineering entries (#3 & 4).
    ____________________
    This post is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

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