Is this too much Speaker for too little room?

Hiccups

I'm currently intrested in buying the following...

Center: LsiC
FLR: Lsi15 (x2)
Surrounds: LsiFX (x2)
Rear Surrounds: Lsi9 (x2)
Sub: PSW1000
Reciever: Onkyo TX-SR875

Is it too much for a room that is 13.5' x 23'? I want and can afford the best but are the Lsi too much for that room? Or should I look at a different series that won't operpower the room? Would I have to crank them up too loud (in that room) that my wife would be unhappy?

Note: For half that length it opens up into a kitchen on one side.
Note 2: I'm aware I would want an amplifier (eventually) to help, but I'm hoping in a room that size the Onkyo 875 would be enough. Or is it a, 'What's the point?' situation and I should look at the RTi series or something else?

engtaz

No, That to me is a perfect setup as far a speaks. Sub could be better. Giving the speakers more power would make the really sing. You have the FX and ?'s on stands,correct? I have heard your speaker setup at G-2's and sounded great. Look at G-2 amps.


engtaz

dpowell

I don't think you need to be worried as much about the size of your room (seems like a good size) as you should be about whether you like how they sound. Have you had an opportunity to test drive either set of speakers? They definitely have different qualities (both good). I've heard the exact setup you describe in our local Fry's dedicated theater room and they sound fantastic. Of course, they are using a high-current amp to drive them and that's probably going to be the first thing you need to upgrade when funds become available. You want to use high-octane fuel in your corvette.... A separate 5-channel amp is my next goal.

Early B.

Huh? Too much? Hell, it ain't enough. It's never enough.

Forget about buying a receiver to power the Lsi series or any other 4 ohm speaker. You gotta get a separate multi-channel amp and an HT pre/pro.

G-2

Early B. wrote: »

Huh? Too much? Hell, it ain't enough. It's never enough.

Forget about buying a receiver to power the Lsi series or any other 4 ohm speaker. You gotta get a separate multi-channel amp and an HT pre/pro.

+1000 - Our entire home theater is ALL LSi, We've got 15's up front, FX's on the sides, 9's in the back and a C in the Center. These are extremely power-hungry speakers @4ohm. We started out with a used Sonance (200 wpc@4ohm) great high power amp, we went from that to a New Outlaw-7500 (300 wpc@4ohm), and then from that we moved within 3 months to the amps which now run our Home Theater (an Earthquake Grande 5 channel, & a Rotel RB-1090 for the front's, and we've got a separate system for listening to 2 channel stuff which include Polk 10B's). The Earthquake is 600wpc @4ohm x5 and the Rotel RB-1090 is 700wpc @4ohm x2 and we couldn't be more pleased. With the addition of the Earthquake Grande 5 we were able to hear things we hadn't heard before and the RB-1090 rounds things out nicely with the power that the LSi's need. These speakers sound soooooooo much better with the proper power, just some food for thought. If you're not going to power the LSi's then you may want to consider a speaker other than the LSi's. Hope this helps (engtaz has heard our rig and I think he can comment with regards to power and sound). The other thing is that going through all the amps we went through in less than a year and 2 words for you 'cha-ching'. Looking back, we'd have saved quite a bit of money if we'd powered them properly in the first place. Whatever you decide, let us all know and don't hesitate to ask questions.

Good luck and Enjoy!

dkg999

Agree with the comments on upgrading the sub for that size room, and adding a separate 7 ch amp (or at leat a 5 ch amp if using an AVR). I also think the LSi9's are over-kill for rear surrounds and would go with the LSi7 in that role and invest the savings in the amp/sub. Great setup, you'll enjoy it.

demaples

Hello, I have an Onkyo 805, lsi25 fronts, genesis towers sides, lsi15 rears, lsic center and PSW 650 sub in about the same size room and it sounds great to me but everyone keeps saying there is a need for a high pwered amp. Can someone explain why all the power is needed? And if there is, what amp is "good stuff" and how is it connected to the 805? Thanks in advance.

be83663

I have Onkyo 805 too!

Early B.

demaples wrote: »

Hello, I have an Onkyo 805, lsi25 fronts, genesis towers sides, lsi15 rears, lsic center and PSW 650 sub in about the same size room and it sounds great to me but everyone keeps saying there is a need for a high pwered amp. Can someone explain why all the power is needed? And if there is, what amp is "good stuff" and how is it connected to the 805? Thanks in advance.

Trust me -- you haven't heard your Lsi's yet until you power them correctly.

Why more power? Well, think about a car. Do you want Hyundai power or Corvette power?

Separate amps are connected via the pre-outs on your receiver. Check your manual.

Early B.

be83663 wrote: »

Wouldn't supplying more power per channel than the recommended power for the speaker damage the speaker, or how does one go around not to damage the speaker in your case? Thank you!

No, don't worry about it. Your ears will blow before the amps drives the speakers to full power.

SlowcarIX

Early B. wrote: »

Trust me -- you haven't heard your Lsi's yet until you power them correctly.

Why more power? Well, think about a car. Do you want Hyundai power or Corvette power?

Separate amps are connected via the pre-outs on your receiver. Check your manual.

lol, so you are a believer of "no replacement for displacement" huh...





there is...and its called PSI (boost/forced induction)

be83663

:eek:

G-2 wrote: »

+1000 - Our entire home theater is ALL LSi, We've got 15's up front, FX's on the sides, 9's in the back and a C in the Center. These are extremely power-hungry speakers @4ohm. We started out with a used Sonance (200 wpc@4ohm) great high power amp, we went from that to a New Outlaw-7500 (300 wpc@4ohm), and then from that we moved within 3 months to the amps which now run our Home Theater (an Earthquake Grande 5 channel, & a Rotel RB-1090 for the front's, and we've got a separate system for listening to 2 channel stuff which include Polk 10B's). The Earthquake is 600wpc @4ohm x5 and the Rotel RB-1090 is 700wpc @4ohm x2 and we couldn't be more pleased. With the addition of the Earthquake Grande 5 we were able to hear things we hadn't heard before and the RB-1090 rounds things out nicely with the power that the LSi's need. These speakers sound soooooooo much better with the proper power, just some food for thought. If you're not going to power the LSi's then you may want to consider a speaker other than the LSi's. Hope this helps (engtaz has heard our rig and I think he can comment with regards to power and sound). The other thing is that going through all the amps we went through in less than a year and 2 words for you 'cha-ching'. Looking back, we'd have saved quite a bit of money if we'd powered them properly in the first place. Whatever you decide, let us all know and don't hesitate to ask questions.

Good luck and Enjoy!

Wouldn't supplying more power per channel than the recommended power for the speaker damage the speaker, or how does one go around not to damage the speakers in your case? Thank you!

bobman1235

It amazes me - and don't take this as an insult - how much money people will spend on those LSi speakers but then try and power them with a little receiver.

It's like buying a top of the line HDTV and plugging in a VCR to watch movies.

Especially since nowadays you can get some really great deals on decent amplification that will blow away any receiver.

Trust the guys above, they know what they're talking about.

be83663

bobman1235 wrote: »

It amazes me - and don't take this as an insult - how much money people will spend on those LSi speakers but then try and power them with a little receiver.

It's like buying a top of the line HDTV and plugging in a VCR to watch movies.

Especially since nowadays you can get some really great deals on decent amplification that will blow away any receiver.

Trust the guys above, they know what they're talking about.

Then how much wpc could be used for 4-ohms speakers like LSi9's that have recommended power up to 200 watts? Could it be as high as 500 wpc? I am not saying it can't be, I am asking if it is o.k. without damaging the speakers.

Early B.

be83663 wrote: »

Then how much wpc could be used for 4-ohms speakers like LSi9's that have recommended power up to 200 watts? Could it be as high as 500 wpc? I am not saying it can't be, I am asking if it is o.k. without damaging the speakers.

We already answered that question for you. Disregard the maximum power specs for speakers. Hell, get a 1,000 watt amp to drive 'em if you like.

dkg999

Unless there is a technical problem, all damage to speakers is done via user error. Even some technical errors are the results of long-term user error.

So you've been given good advice, it's up to you whether to accept it or not, so go forth and do as you wish. Sometimes you have to learn through your own mistakes, not those of others.

be83663

Early B. wrote: »

We already answered that question for you. Disregard the maximum power specs for speakers. Hell, get a 1,000 watt amp to drive 'em if you like.

Then I think it would be better if all the manufacturers said a Minimum power of something, instead of Recommended power between something to something, and put a note that says the more wpc the better; that would be more accurate! I know you would agree with me on this point!

Hawkeye

I have room similiar in size to yours. 11.5 X 24. I have Paradigm Sig S8's which are real close to the size of the 15's.

I have found and I only use it for 2 Channel, that the S8's are way to much for the size room I have. In my opinion, big speakers need room to "breathe". It seemed to me they become congested and smear in the mid range and the bass was very difficult to control. They did not start to sound good until I reached very high volumn levels. I'm in the process of breaking in some smaller floor standers and even during this process, I know I made the right choice in downsizing.

I would start smaller and use a place with a trade up policy. Try some large bookshelf's on stands with a solid sub. Mind you really need to to have clean, powerful amps up front to get the benefit of a high quality speaker.

Gordo

Hiccups

Some good advice. Thanks everyone.

be83663

Wouldn't having 600 wpc for LSi9, for example, whose recommended power is between 20-200 wpc be like driving a F-1 with 800 horsepower with Honda Accord tires? I mean wouldn't the Accord tires only good for a car with comparable engines like 200-300 hp? Wouldn't pairing the Accord tires with F-1 engine damage the tires faster than necessary; and wouldn't this be an analogy to how 600 wpc amplifier could damage the LSi9 speakers?

Would you rather buy a set of one-year old used LSi9 speakers, with recommended amp power of 200 watts, that had been paired with 350 wpc Rotel amplifier, or or a set of one-year old used LSi9 speakers that had been paired with 200 wpc Rotel amplifeir, for example? Which speakers would be in better conditions at the end of that first year? Does anyone know?

Gaara

No. You don't seem to understand power, most people use very little power when they use their system, the extra is generally there for peaks. I own Anthony Gallo Ref 3.1s, the owner of Anthony Gallo Speakers uses a 500wpc amp with his 3.1s, even though they are rated at 350watts. I have personally used them with 1100wpc flowing through them with no issues, conversely I also had a ~50wpc amp hooked up to them and had clipping issues.

Your car analogy is confusing, what would the horsepower matter for the tires? If the guy never gets over 100mph what does it matter as tires are rated for speed not hp. The analogy would work with speakers, if you only use 100wpc max then it doesn't matter the power of the amp. Speakers are damaged much more often buy pushing them to hard and underpowering then overpowering them.

As for your last questions I personally wouldn't care what the power of the amp was, all that would matter is he didn't abuse them and had good power going through them. I wouldn't care if it was a 1000wpc amp that he had, if he kept it at a reasonable level it is all headroom.

If you have more questions feel free to ask, but if you start attacking the answers baselessly then I for one will no longer answer.

Sherardp

Looks like an excellent setup in the making, check out the SVS PB13U sub over the PSW1000. Add an amp asap to prevent damage. You can check them out used at Audiogon.com. You're going to have an awesome setup.

be83663

First of all, how can I attck someone who answers my question with a nice manner? I do appreciate you for answering my question, I do.

So if I understood you correctly, 1,000 wpc amplifier would damage LSi9, for example, only if I turned the volume up so high that the amplifier supplied the speaker with more than recommended 200 watts over a period of long time, just like clipping by underpowering would damage a speaker over a period of time; but the latter would be a problem that occurs more readily than the former.

Gaara

Exactly right. One more thing, amplifiers can output more power then normal for short peaks. This spec is given as a max, peak, or dynamic output and the normal power output is labeled as continuous or rms.

Just say you are using 50wpc and there is a sudden peak that uses 200wpc. If you had a 100wpc amp that could do 200wpc peaks you would be ok. The same if you had a 200wpc amp with 400wpc peaks. You would be using 50wpc w/ a 200wpc peak for both. Now what if the peak was 300wpc not 200wpc. Now the 100wpc amp can only output a max of 200wpc and clips, causing distortion that could damage the speakers. The 200wpc amp on the other hand has no problem doing this peak and there is no distortion.

Real life example, the Onkyo 805 has 130wpc and 150wpc peaks, while the Parasound Halo A52 (my first surround amp) is 125wpc with 200wpc peaks. The Parasound peak is a minimum, in all likelihood it is higher, while the Onkyo is with 1ch driven, so in real life it is probably lower.

P.S. It actually gets even more complicated when you factor in the fact that lower frequencies require exponentially more power, and speakers impedance will change w/ frequency dipping lower then nominal.

Hawkeye

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people don't know how many watts they are listening to during a listening session. My amps have watt meters and it can be suprising.

For example, in my system, 3.5 watts steady and it is very difficult to carry on a conversation with my wife 3 feet away. Even at 3.5 watts, there are peaks that hit 35. When I rank it up to say, 35 watts, peaks hit 350-375.

I think Gaara hit it right. You need the power for peaks to prevent clipping.

Gordo

be83663

Hawkeye wrote: »

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people don't know how many watts they are listening to during a listening session. My amps have watt meters and it can be suprising.

For example, in my system, 3.5 watts steady and it is very difficult to carry on a conversation with my wife 3 feet away. Even at 3.5 watts, there are peaks that hit 35. When I rank it up to say, 35 watts, peaks hit 350-375.

I think Gaara hit it right. You need the power for peaks to prevent clipping.

Gordo

I see. Thank you for the helpful numbers!
And, is even 3.5-watts-steady that loud that you can't hear clearly what a person is saying 3 ft. away from you? In that case, if its peak reaches about 35 or 10 times as high as the steady level, and if I have an amp that can drive up to even 75 watts/channel RMS, for a peak of about 150 w/c, for all seven channels driven simultaneously, wouldn't that amp still be a pretty powerful one, because that would mean that each of seven channels can put out 15-watts-steady, or four times as loud as the level where you can't hear clearly a person only three feet away is saying? Even if 35 watts/channel RMS amp at 7 channels driven (70 w/c peak) can produce 7-watts-steady for a peak of 70, and it would be twice as loud as at a distance where you couldn't hear a person three feet away was saying. It just makes me think how much watts/ch would be really enough for me! After reading your writing, I have an idea that an amp that produces about 75 watts/ch, or anything higher, at all channels driven simultaneously seems to be very powerful enough to use in my 7.1 setup all with LSi speakers in my apartment setting.

Face

There's more to a amp than it's wattage rating.

venomclan

Face wrote: »

There's more to a amp than it's wattage rating.

As long as it is 200 watts, you are fine.

Hawkeye

How about these then? Just add another zero.
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1115&product=MC2KW

Gaara

Face wrote: »

There's more to a amp than it's wattage rating.

I concur, but for now it is easier to explain and understand power as opposed to other factors like amp classes, topology, or other specs to someone who is new at this. On a separate note entirely, I may have something to barter for those cables instead of $, I'll let you know when your ready to ship...I will give you a hint, you bought one from me before.

be, hawk makes a good point but how often do you listen where you can have a normal conversation, I know I don't. A 10db increase in sound is perceived as a doubling of sound, and it requires 10x the power. Try listening to your system and putting it up 10db, its a nice increase but it isn't huge and now you are using 10x the power. I believe movie soundtracks have peaks around 20db, that means you can go from using 3.5wpc in your example to 350wpc.

There are other reasons to get a external amp on top of extra power, such as sound quality. When I went from a rcvr's power to a external amp the first thing I noticed was a clarity in the sound. I could hear everything clearly, notes were more pronounced, I could easily make out glass breaking in a movie and other things I couldn't previously. The next thing I noticed was the bass was more controlled, it was quicker then before. I noticed more detail when listening at lower volumes, things didn't gel together as they used to and I could make out individual instruments even when playing music softly. My advice to you would be try one in your system and see what changes occur, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

be83663

That's very helpful and easy to understand, Gaara! Thank you!