Velo SPL-1200R 2 channel sub review!

pearsall001

Let me preface by saying that I was a dyed in the wool believer in no sub for 2 channel listening. However as one grows older, one also grows wiser in their thinking.

The Velo SPL-1200R (in cherry) is gorgeous to look at & doesn't command a lot of floor space (14.25x14.5x16.5 at 53lb). It comes with a very nice feature that makes room placement & seamless integration all the easier. Sub integration was always a stumbling block for me until now.

The Velo comes with a mic on a 20' cord that you simply place in your favorite listening position. Now, press the EQ button & duck for cover! Remove all animals fronm the room, no joke. It then proceeds to give off 12 low frequency burst sweeps that literally shake the walls & goes right thru you. It then self calibrates itself & the rest is up to you. By remote control you adjust the volumn, & phase. The crossover is on the back & must be done manually. Let me tell you, this works flawlessly.

Now my reason for adding a sub:

I was always a big fan of monitors vs. floorstanders (especially within the same speaker line & even more expensive lines vs. no sub) for the simple reason that they excel in all areas...except deep bass. In my book a floorstander is compromised in it's design & is simply a monitor wanna-be stuffed into a bigger cabinet trying to pull everything off. Something it just can't do. For instance, the worst place in your room for bass reproduction is more than likely where your speakers are. Now remove the bass from the equation & the monitor shines over it's big brother in it's mid-bass & hi's musical capabilities. Now your amp doesn't have to work as hard either.

Now you can concentrate on bringing bass into the mix. By adding a well integrated sub (extremely important...it must be a seamless integration to obtain the dynamic effect). Once you have accomplished this you now have a system that excels in all areas. There is more weight, substance & just an overall feeling of realism that is just remarkable. The Velo has elevated my 2 channel listening pleasure to where even my AAD 2001's big brother, the AAD 2003 couldn't bring me to, or for that matter a lot of other floorstanders. Just my take...now back to the music!

tonyb

Ok now,you are officially kicked out of the 2 channel club.:)

Glad your diggin' it,I'm still in the camp of no sub on 2 channel unless you can maybe do duel subs to reduce localization,but hey,you dig it so thats all that matters.Enjoy.

pearsall001

tonyb wrote: »

Ok now,you are officially kicked out of the 2 channel club.:)

Glad your diggin' it,I'm still in the camp of no sub on 2 channel unless you can maybe do duel subs to reduce localization,but hey,you dig it so thats all that matters.Enjoy.

That was my main concern...localization. But the EQ system on the Velo does such a fantastic job that it is not even close to being detected. The bass is just "there" surrounding the whole soundstage. You can't pin point it even if you were trying to. I can really understand where you're coming from though, I've tried other subs & they were all detectable which I didn't like at all. This Velo is not the case though. And yep!! I'm diggin it!! Stereo subs...hmmm! double the fun maybe!!

reeltrouble1

so how much you listing it for, some of the HT guys prob. want to know Phil?;)

RT1--no sub bub

hearingimpared

I don nee no stinking sub (in my best Spanish accent)!!!!

But I am glad you got it right and I can't wait to hear it.

Systems

pearsall001 wrote: »

That was my main concern...localization. But the EQ system on the Velo does such a fantastic job that it is not even close to being detected.

I have found as you have that a single sub can be undetectable if care is taken to set it up properly.Crossover blending and phase are tremendously important.Having the crossover in the 60hz and below range helps also.

pearsall001

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

so how much you listing it for, some of the HT guys prob. want to know Phil?;)

RT1--no sub bub

Those Amazings would really be "amazing"...but only after you added a sub.
You don't know what you're missing!

treitz3

It is of my opinion that no matter what your stance on sub or no sub for a 2-channel rig, the system is not complete unless you have the full range of frequencies. Omitting the lowest of frequencies doesn't represent an accurate reproduction of music.

Unless you have a 2-channel speaker that can faithfully hit 20 Hz, you need a properly integrated sub to complete the sound. Otherwise you are fooling yourself into thinking that what you are hearing is a true representation of reproduction. There are not that many speakers that are full range that can pull this off faithfully, therefore I see no reason why a sub for two channel would be considered a "sin".

Phil, Velodyne has some great gear out there. I don't have their sub [I have a VMPS larger and used to have a Polk PSW1000] but I do have the Velo SMS-1 Sub management system which does basically the same thing as the sub you have in integrating the subs to the mains and I have to admit it does a seamless job at what it does and properly adjusted can make it seem as if you have no sub at all, just a full range speaker with no localization of the sub itself, regardless of the type of sub, whatsoever.

pearsall001

treitz3 wrote: »

It is of my opinion that no matter what your stance on sub or no sub for a 2-channel rig, the system is not complete unless you have the full range of frequencies. Omitting the lowest of frequencies doesn't represent an accurate reproduction of music.

Unless you have a 2-channel speaker that can faithfully hit 20 Hz, you need a properly integrated sub to complete the sound. Otherwise you are fooling yourself into thinking that what you are hearing is a true representation of reproduction. There are not that many speakers that are full range that can pull this off faithfully, therefore I see no reason why a sub for two channel would be considered a "sin".

Phil, Velodyne has some great gear out there. I don't have their sub [I have a VMPS larger and used to have a Polk PSW1000] but I do have the Velo SMS-1 Sub management system which does basically the same thing as the sub you have in integrating the subs to the mains and I have to admit it does a seamless job at what it does and properly adjusted can make it seem as if you have no sub at all, just a full range speaker with no localization of the sub itself, regardless of the type of sub, whatsoever.

We get it, but it seems to fall on the deaf ears of others. You are absolutely correct in saying that there are very few (meaning mega buck) speakers that can actually reproduce music in it's entirety.

I'm sure guys think that their speakers sound great & have plenty of bass...but they just don't realize what they're missing. Well, at least we do along with a few other folks.

Those other guys will continue to swap out gear looking for that all important elusive missing link. But what they forget to realize is that no matter what gear is upstream, it all comes out at the speaker. Which of course isn't giving them the whole musical spectrum. They're still looking! :rolleyes:

tonyb

Maybe those of us with no need for a sub have those elusive speakers that hit low.:)
Now for HT,thats a whole nutha story.

furball

Great review.

A couple of questions,

1) How are you connecting the sub to the rest of your system? Receiver's LFE output? External crossover?

2) Where is your sub in relation to your speakers?

3) What kind of monitors are you using?

4) How large is your room? Have you considered the 10"? Would that still be adequate for your room?

5) Have you considered the DD series? I was debating between either the DD or the SPL, not sure if the DD is worth it over the SPL.

pearsall001

furball wrote: »

Great review.

A couple of questions,

1) How are you connecting the sub to the rest of your system? Receiver's LFE output? External crossover?

2) Where is your sub in relation to your speakers?

3) What kind of monitors are you using?

4) How large is your room? Have you considered the 10"? Would that still be adequate for your room?

5) Have you considered the DD series? I was debating between either the DD or the SPL, not sure if the DD is worth it over the SPL.

To answer your questions:

#1- The Velo is hooked up thru my Krell preamp (I'm only using the sub for 2 channel listening)

#2- The sub is directly behind the right front main monitor (16" from the front wall & 24" from the side wall resting up against my entertainment center)

#3- My monitors are AAD 2001 monitors (superb low end down to 25Hz) Even with my mains hitting so low, the Velo adds a whole new dimension that a single pair of speakers simply can't achieve.

#4- My room is 13x32x7 (approx 3000cu ft) A 10" just wouldn't get the job done.

#5- The DD series is Velo's top of the line with the SPL a close second. The DD series is servo controled (the sub has to work a lot harder because of the servo technology) & comes with a more sophisticated SMS-1 EQ program (you can buy the SMS-1 by itself) & use it on any sub.

The $$$$ difference between the DD & SPL series is hugh!! Talking directly with a few folks at Velo they assured me that I would be very, very hard pressed to hear any musical difference between the two. Now that I have the SPL 1200R up & running, I must say that I am extremely impressed with how well it forms a seamless integration with my mains & the room. The EQ system on the SPL is a very sophisticated program in itself & does a spectacular job. Kudos to Velodyne for such a great product!!

I'm glad I went with the SPL & pocketed the savings.

furball

Thanks for the detailed reply. Learn something new everyday.:)

I was debating between the DD and the SPL series. Seeing that there is such a big $$$ difference between the two lines, I wasn't sure. Now you confirmed my suspicion, I think I will pocket the change as well and go with an SPL.


One thing is, you mentioned that you are hooking up the sub through your Krell preamp. Does the Krell preamp have a built in crossover? Or are you running RCA preout to the RCA in on the sub, and then from the RCA out on the sub to your amp? I am debating on whether to get an external active crossover.

pearsall001

furball wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed reply. Learn something new everyday.:)

I was debating between the DD and the SPL series. Seeing that there is such a big $$$ difference between the two lines, I wasn't sure. Now you confirmed my suspicion, I think I will pocket the change as well and go with an SPL.


One thing is, you mentioned that you are hooking up the sub through your Krell preamp. Does the Krell preamp have a built in crossover? Or are you running RCA preout to the RCA in on the sub, and then from the RCA out on the sub to your amp? I am debating on whether to get an external active crossover.

The Krell pre doesn't have a crossover. I'm using RCA preout from the preamp to the RCA input on the Velo. That's it, no RCA's from the sub back to the amp. I'm using the built in crossover in the sub. Very simple & works great.

furball

So the Krell preamp must have 2 sets of RCA preouts.

That also means that you are running the other set of RCA preouts directly to your amp and then from the amp to your speakers. Which means that your mains are reproducing (or trying to reproduce) the same bass frequencies your sub is making. Doesn't that give you a double dose of bass?

One of the advantages of incorporating a sub into a 2 channel setup is to take the bass load off your mains, so your mains can reproduce the non-bass frequencies with more clarity. Although I guess in your case, since your mains can go down to 25Hz, it doesn't really all that much difference.

pearsall001

furball wrote: »

So the Krell preamp must have 2 sets of RCA preouts.

That also means that you are running the other set of RCA preouts directly to your amp and then from the amp to your speakers. Which means that your mains are reproducing (or trying to reproduce) the same bass frequencies your sub is making. Doesn't that give you a double dose of bass?

One of the advantages of incorporating a sub into a 2 channel setup is to take the bass load off your mains, so your mains can reproduce the non-bass frequencies with more clarity. Although I guess in your case, since your mains can go down to 25Hz, it doesn't really all that much difference.

I'm running balanced XLR cables from the Krell amp to the Krell preamp. This way I still have the RCA outputs on the preamp to run to the sub. I called Krell & they told me that this is the correct way to connect a sub with the balanced connection already being used. I'm not that well versed on this whole hook up thing, I'm only going with what Krell & my dealer me. Works fine. Is there another way to do it?

treitz3

The SMS-1 has to fire your mains during the sweep, otherwise you are adjusting the sub to the room's acoustics and not properly integrating the sub to the mains and both to the room. At least that's how my SMS-1 works.

treitz3

Here's how I hook the SMS-1 to the pre......I use the "EQ output" [#14], however your sub may be different as I have the external SMS-1.

furball

One confession on my part, I learned all this information from a VERY knowledgeable member on audioholics.



Well, the whole theory behind using a sub in a music setup is to take the bass frequency load off your mains, and let the sub deal exclusively with the bass frequencies. The benefit in that is:

1) Your amp does not have to amplify the bass frequencies, giving the amp an easier time driving your mains, and
2) Your mains (your monitors) don't have to reproduce the bass frequencies, which makes the non bass frequencies sound cleaner


So the ideal way to hook up a sub to a 2 channel setup would be to connect the RCA preout from a preamp to an external active crossover. The crossover divides the full spectrum signal from the preamp into 2 signals, one signal only contains the bass frequency and that goes to the sub, and the other signal only contains the non bass signal and that goes to your amp (and from the amp to your mains).

The reason for using an active external crossover is because most sub's built in passive crossovers aren't very good, the frequencies bleed over very easily.


Or you can route the RCA preout from your preamp, connect that to the sub's RCA in, and connect the sub's RCA out to your amp. This way you are using the sub's built in crossover. But like I said earlier, most built in crossovers are passive, and aren't very good at separating out the frequencies.


Doing it this way (meaning using crossovers) results in your mains only producing the non bass frequencies (cleaner), and your sub responsible for producing bass frequencies. Another advantage is that you don't get a double dose of bass, meaning that if your mains are sent a full spectrum signal (without going through the crossover), your mains will be reproducing the same bass frequencies your sub is reproducing. Although it may sound good bass wise, it is really not an accurate representation of what's recorded on your CD.


And even if you only send a crossed over signal to your mains, you have a very difficult time determining the lower limit decay SPL (sound pressure level) of your mains. Most mains decay in SPL in a slope. This means that here again, you are going to have either an excess or deficit in the crossover frequency region.


This is the reason why it is such a headache to integrate a sub into a 2 channel setup.

treitz3

furball wrote: »

So the ideal way to hook up a sub to a 2 channel setup would be to connect the RCA preout from a preamp to an external active crossover.

The external active crossover in his rig is incorporated in the sub. That's the SMS-1 portion of the sub. He's got it hooked up fine. All that needs to be verified is that his mains are firing if it works like the [separate component] SMS-1 I have. No headache when the SMS-1 takes care of the infinite adjustments and you tweak from there using the mic..

hearingimpared

Tom you are full of surprises!

furball

But I thought the SMS-1 is just an active EQ, not an active crossover. If it is both, then two thumbs up to Velodyne for including such a sophisticated room correction EQ and active crossover into the SPL sub.:)

This really makes me want to go out and buy that SPL.

treitz3 wrote: »

The external active crossover in his rig is incorporated in the sub. That's the SMS-1 portion of the sub. He's got it hooked up fine. All that needs to be verified is that his mains are firing if it works like the [separate component] SMS-1 I have. No headache when the SMS-1 takes care of the infinite adjustments and you tweak from there using the mic..

treitz3

Pull my finger and I'll give you another surprise.

furball

What's that?

treitz3 wrote: »

Pull my finger and I'll give you another surprise.

Early B.

furball wrote: »

Well, the whole theory behind using a sub in a music setup is to take the bass frequency load off your mains, and let the sub deal exclusively with the bass frequencies. The benefit in that is:

1) Your amp does not have to amplify the bass frequencies, giving the amp an easier time driving your mains, and
2) Your mains (your monitors) don't have to reproduce the bass frequencies, which makes the non bass frequencies sound cleaner


So the ideal way to hook up a sub to a 2 channel setup would be to connect the RCA preout from a preamp to an external active crossover....

I agree that what you described is a good way to integrate a sub. The problem is -- as audiophiles, we don't want a bunch of extra electronics in the signal path. High quality electronic crossovers that won't 'eff up the signal ain't necessarily cheap.

Also, in terms of the cutting off the bass frequencies from the mains -- it's not always a good idea to do that. Some people prefer to run their mains full range along with a subwoofer. An analogy is HT with a sub and mains set to LARGE.

treitz3

Your best bet for advice on this is Dave Santos, Velodyne service manager.
(408) 465-2819 or dave.santos@velodyne.com
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com
This information was pulled off another forum and may not be current, so forgive me in advance if it is not correct.

Also, you can look at the Outlaw's "Don't Panic" guide to the SMS-1. It's the layman's term guide for a fairly complicated piece of gear. Linky here...

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

The above link will describe all of the features and adjustments the SMS-1 will do for your rig.

furball

Early B. wrote: »

I agree that what you described is a good way to integrate a sub. The problem is -- as audiophiles, we don't want a bunch of extra electronics in the signal path. High quality electronic crossovers that won't 'eff up the signal ain't necessarily cheap.

Also, in terms of the cutting off the bass frequencies from the mains -- it's not always a good idea to do that. Some people prefer to run their mains full range along with a subwoofer. An analogy is HT with a sub and mains set to LARGE.

Well, that's why many people prefer to use true full range speakers. But those true full range speakers are really quite expensive.

I like true full range speakers as well, minimal electronics, just the source, preamp, amp, and the speakers.

furball

Very helpful info, thank you.

treitz3 wrote: »

Your best bet for advice on this is Dave Santos, Velodyne service manager.
(408) 465-2819 or dave.santos@velodyne.com
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com
This information was pulled off another forum and may not be current, so forgive me in advance if it is not correct.

Also, you can look at the Outlaw's "Don't Panic" guide to the SMS-1. It's the layman's term guide for a fairly complicated piece of gear. Linky here...

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

The above link will describe all of the features and adjustments the SMS-1 will do for your rig.

treitz3

Early B. wrote: »

I agree that what you described is a good way to integrate a sub. The problem is -- as audiophiles, we don't want a bunch of extra electronics in the signal path. High quality electronic crossovers that won't 'eff up the signal ain't necessarily cheap.

Also, in terms of the cutting off the bass frequencies from the mains -- it's not always a good idea to do that. Some people prefer to run their mains full range along with a subwoofer. An analogy is HT with a sub and mains set to LARGE.

Early, with the sub you have.....nothing but an improvement will come from one of these units. I know it's extra electronic crap but it's not in the critical high frequencies or midrange. It's in the bass department which is not as critical. If you ever make it up here, I'll be happy to give you a demo of this particular piece of gear. I can do the manual thing and then show you what it can do with 2 different sets of speakers and the instantaneous results, switchable within a millisecond as the music is going. I hear ya', but you have to hear to believe. Velodyne did right with this one.

Follow that link I provided and see what adjustments can be made. If you can make it up, cool. If not, we will be having an audio event about two hours away from you in Sept. that my rig will be featured in and you can get a listen on at that time.

Early B.

treitz3 wrote: »

Early, with the sub you have.....nothing but an improvement will come from one of these units. I know it's extra electronic crap but it's not in the critical high frequencies or midrange. It's in the bass department which is not as critical. If you ever make it up here, I'll be happy to give you a demo of this particular piece of gear. I can do the manual thing and then show you what it can do with 2 different sets of speakers and the instantaneous results, switchable within a millisecond as the music is going. I hear ya', but you have to hear to believe. Velodyne did right with this one.

Well, I already went cheap for now and bought a Reckhorn B-1 to mate with a pair of DIY subs for HT along with my VMPS sub. It will arive later this week. I'm sure the Velo SMS is very cool and would come in handy when trying to integrate three subs. It's on my wish list, but first I wanna re-build my 2-channel system by purchasing a kickass amp and a nice preamp.:(

tonyb

furball wrote: »

Well, that's why many people prefer to use true full range speakers. But those true full range speakers are really quite expensive.

I like true full range speakers as well, minimal electronics, just the source, preamp, amp, and the speakers.

full range expensive ? Would you consider the 1.2 tl full range? How about the Carver amazings? Full range can be had for a song.