Polk LSi Speakers

be83663

Ron Temple wrote: »

One of the drawbacks of the 805/875 is they throw alot of heat even with easy to drive speakers. They have a selectable switch >6ohms and >4ohms. The 4 ohm switch limits the current to mitigate the heat, however not using the switch will allow the AVR to run ~ 180w @ 4ohm, which is respectable. The warning is that it could shorten the life of the AVR running full out. What this says to me is that these Onks will be adequate, but underpowered running in 4 ohm mode, better running in > 6ohm, but might shorten the gears life...so I'd look at it as a short term solution running a full LSi setup.

Thanks for your info! Just to clarify though, if I understood you right, how does running the receiver at >6 ohms mode produce more watts, than running at >4 ohms; wouldn't >6 ohms mean more resistance than >4 ohms, and thus less watts? You said that if I don't use the switch, then the receiver will produce 180w @ 4 ohms; does not using the switch mean putting the switch at >6 ohms mode, because I do have to choose between the two modes for the set-up? I am confused. And, how much underpowered would running at >4 ohms be compared to running at >6 ohms, at the expense of prolonging the gear's life? Thanks.

Ron Temple

be83663 wrote: »

Thanks for your info! Just to clarify though, if I understood you right, how does running the receiver at >6 ohms mode produce more watts, than running at >4 ohms; wouldn't >6 ohms mean more resistance than >4 ohms, and thus less watts? You said that if I don't use the switch, then the receiver will produce 180w @ 4 ohms; does not using the switch mean putting the switch at >6 ohms mode, because I do have to choose between the two modes for the set-up? I am confused. And, how much underpowered would running at >4 ohms be compared to running at >6 ohms, at the expense of prolonging the gear's life? Thanks.

I better qualify this by saying I don't own the Onkyo. I paraphrased a review I saw on Secrets explaining the 4 ohm vs 6 ohm settings and the likely consequences. There are others on this forum that own and love these AVRs, though I don't know if they are running LSis.

My understanding is that it's recommended by Onkyo to select the 4 ohm setting when running 4 ohm speakers. Their 4 ohm solution is a limiter that inhibits current and reduces heat. I believe it still produces over 110w per channel with the limiter in play which should be adequate for LSis, not optimal. However, you can still run 4 ohm speakers without the limiter engaged. This will give you much more current that will allow the speakers to perform better. If you do this you might think of some method of cooling (fan) to handle the excess heat. Heat kills electronics. The Onkyo's already run hot. It's just a buyer beware warning on my part. You might have a great experience running LSis with the Onk...maybe some here are.

To avoid any "what ifs" and to insure yourself you're covered and getting the most from your speaker investment, "most" of us recommend at least a 2 channel amp to drive the fronts...used, vintage and sexy are available in the $3 - 400 range. Quite a few of them get passed around here on the FM.

I think short term you can use the Onk in either config ( 4 or 6 ohm), but I'd recommend an amp down the road and find out what those speaks can really do.

be83663

Ron Temple wrote: »

I better qualify this by saying I don't own the Onkyo. I paraphrased a review I saw on Secrets explaining the 4 ohm vs 6 ohm settings and the likely consequences. There are others on this forum that own and love these AVRs, though I don't know if they are running LSis.

My understanding is that it's recommended by Onkyo to select the 4 ohm setting when running 4 ohm speakers. Their 4 ohm solution is a limiter that inhibits current and reduces heat. I believe it still produces over 110w per channel with the limiter in play which should be adequate for LSis, not optimal. However, you can still run 4 ohm speakers without the limiter engaged. This will give you much more current that will allow the speakers to perform better. If you do this you might think of some method of cooling (fan) to handle the excess heat. Heat kills electronics. The Onkyo's already run hot. It's just a buyer beware warning on my part. You might have a great experience running LSis with the Onk...maybe some here are.

To avoid any "what ifs" and to insure yourself you're covered and getting the most from your speaker investment, "most" of us recommend at least a 2 channel amp to drive the fronts...used, vintage and sexy are available in the $3 - 400 range. Quite a few of them get passed around here on the FM.

I think short term you can use the Onk in either config ( 4 or 6 ohm), but I'd recommend an amp down the road and find out what those speaks can really do.

Thanks again. One more technical question though; if my Onkyo 805 produces 130 w/c for 8 ohms speaker at the receiver's 6 ohms setting, then if I put the receiver's setting at 4 ohms for 4 ohms speakers like LSi series, shouldn't it produce more than 130 w/c? Or it would actually produce less than 130 w/c to prevent the system from overheating like you warned. Thanks.

ohskigod

thats gonna depend in the specs of your recievers amp section. they should have it in the manual somewhere what the output will be in 4 ohm mode. I cant imagine it being less than the rating in 8 ohm though. wouldnt be surprised if 130 was on the money. the thing is, if it has to do stuff to prevent overheating, that means that while it will play 4 ohm speakers, its not doing it optimally in my eyes.

if you own LSi's and want to run on a reciever...thats cool if it sounds good, just remember to upgrade amplification LONG before you upgrade the speakers

Ron Temple

be83663 wrote: »

Thanks again. One more technical question though; if my Onkyo 805 produces 130 w/c for 8 ohms speaker at the receiver's 6 ohms setting, then if I put the receiver's setting at 4 ohms for 4 ohms speakers like LSi series, shouldn't it produce more than 130 w/c? Or it would actually produce less than 130 w/c to prevent the system from overheating like you warned. Thanks.

Google the Secrets of Home Theatre review on the 805. The reviewer explains the setup very well and I'm just paraphrasing from memory. In normal operation(> 6ohm) the AVR puts out over 180 watts at 4 ohms. With the 4 ohm setting the current limiter kicks in and reduces the flow to avoid overheating, thus the 4 ohm rms rating is less. This is pretty typical of all AVRs that use the selectable 4 ohm switch. I'm too lazy to link you, it's buried in a long Polk thread on AVS...sorry.

demaples

be83663 wrote: »

Does your Onkyo 805 have any problem handling a pair of LSi25 and a pair of LSi15? I have Onkyo 805 too and am thinking of buying two pairs of Lsi9's for the front and rear, but some people seem to be saying that I need a higher end amplifier to work with LSi series speakers.

I haven't noticed any problems and the system sounds fantastic. It definitely rocks the house.

be83663

The following is a reply I got from a Onkyo Representative:


Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support.

With the 4 ohm load on the receiver that would boost the watts per channel coming out of the receiver. For 4 ohms the watts per channel would at 190 watts per channel. So the speakers would have to be able to handle 190 watts.
Thank you,


I don't know if he or she knows accurately; maybe without the 4-ohms setting switch on of the receiver, that limits the current output, the receiver would produce about 250 watts/channel. With the switch on, it might produce close to what she says 180-190 watts/channel.

So I did go to a website that Ron Temple suggested, to figure out what my Onkyo 805 would actually produce with the receiver's safe switch, 4-ohms setting, on. I read an article of Brian there who had actually measured power-on idle power consumptions of the receiver to be 135V with a safe switch off vs. 95V with a safe switch on. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5649 From this number I just used a simple Ohm's Equation, or whatever it was called, V=RI. 135V= 4-ohms times I (current). In this case, the current would be 33.75 Ampere. 95V= 4-ohms times I (current). In this case the current would be 23.75 Ampere. It means that with a safe switch on, there is 23.75/33.75= 70% less current through the system than with a safe switch off. With a safe switch of a receiver off, my receiver should produce about 260 watts/channel @4-ohms. Again, this was calculated using the Ohm's Law V=RI. My receiver produces 130 watts/channel at 8-ohms; so if the voltage stays the same (the number 130 watts/channel is directly proportional to the current, I, in Ohm's Law), then it should produce 260 watts/channel at 4-ohms. And 70% of 260 watts/channel would be 183 watts/channel. So I figured that Onkyo 805 would be producing about 183 watts/channel continuously @ the reciever's 4-ohms setting with 4-ohms speakers like POLK LSi's connected.

Now, I am ready to hear all you people's criticisms regarding my own way of interpretation and calculation. Thank you!

cfrizz

:eek:Yikes!:eek:

Look Be, if you want to run your LSI's off of a receiver that really isn't meant to support a 4ohm load go right ahead.

You have been given good advice by people who already know what it takes to make the LSI's sing loud & clear, and to protect their expensive investment in speakers.

If your Onkyo goes into protect mode or you blow a tweeter, you are on your own. You won't be able to say you haven't been warned.

Ron Temple

be83663 wrote: »

The following is a reply I got from a Onkyo Representative:


Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support.

With the 4 ohm load on the receiver that would boost the watts per channel coming out of the receiver. For 4 ohms the watts per channel would at 190 watts per channel. So the speakers would have to be able to handle 190 watts.
Thank you,


I don't know if he or she knows accurately; maybe without the 4-ohms setting switch on of the receiver, that limits the current output, the receiver would produce about 250 watts/channel. With the switch on, it might produce close to what she says 180-190 watts/channel.

So I did go to a website that Ron Temple suggested, to figure out what my Onkyo 805 would actually produce with the receiver's safe switch, 4-ohms setting, on. I read an article of Brian there who had actually measured power-on idle power consumptions of the receiver to be 135V with a safe switch off vs. 95V with a safe switch on. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5649 From this number I just used a simple Ohm's Equation, or whatever it was called, V=RI. 135V= 4-ohms times I (current). In this case, the current would be 33.75 Ampere. 95V= 4-ohms times I (current). In this case the current would be 23.75 Ampere. It means that with a safe switch on, there is 23.75/33.75= 70% less current through the system than with a safe switch off. With a safe switch of a receiver off, my receiver should produce about 260 watts/channel @4-ohms. Again, this was calculated using the Ohm's Law V=RI. My receiver produces 130 watts/channel at 8-ohms; so if the voltage stays the same (the number 130 watts/channel is directly proportional to the current, I, in Ohm's Law), then it should produce 260 watts/channel at 4-ohms. And 70% of 260 watts/channel would be 183 watts/channel. So I figured that Onkyo 805 would be producing about 183 watts/channel continuously @ the reciever's 4-ohms setting with 4-ohms speakers like POLK LSi's connected.

Now, I am ready to hear all you people's criticisms regarding my own way of interpretation and calculation. Thank you!

Looks like my memory was a little off...but here's the review, go to Part 5 "On the Bench"...might be the same source you worked with.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_3/onkyo-tx-sr805-receiver-9-2006-part-1.html

Yes, 270w on the > 6ohm setting at 1.0% distortion which is a little higher up the curve than spec...and 151w with the limiter engaged. That's bench test, short duration, not real world though they didn't drive it to clipping (good thing). It's one beefy amp section for an AVR. There's still a caveat in the review about the heat if running in the > 6ohm mode for 4 ohm speakers.

If I were you, I wouldn't hesitate to try LSis with this AVR, but I'd still shop for an amp down the road .

be83663

Ron Temple wrote: »

Looks like my memory was a little off...but here's the review, go to Part 5 "On the Bench"...might be the same source you worked with.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_3/onkyo-tx-sr805-receiver-9-2006-part-1.html

Yes, 270w on the > 6ohm setting at 1.0% distortion which is a little higher up the curve than spec...and 151w with the limiter engaged. That's bench test, short duration, not real world though they didn't drive it to clipping (good thing). It's one beefy amp section for an AVR. There's still a caveat in the review about the heat if running in the > 6ohm mode for 4 ohm speakers.

If I were you, I wouldn't hesitate to try LSis with this AVR, but I'd still shop for an amp down the road .

Hi, Ron Temple. Thanks for the very helpful link; I was not aware of that lengthy article by Brian. So, I just want to be sure that you are suggesting that even with the limiter engaged, you feel that it is going to damage the system, either the AVR or speakers, or both, over a long term, if I use an AVR with 4-ohms speakers like LSi's?

I would still want to know what your concern is, after all these people's talks though. Thank you for your insight!

be83663

cfrizz wrote: »

:eek:Yikes!:eek:

Look Be, if you want to run your LSI's off of a receiver that really isn't meant to support a 4ohm load go right ahead.

You have been given good advice by people who already know what it takes to make the LSI's sing loud & clear, and to protect their expensive investment in speakers.

If your Onkyo goes into protect mode or you blow a tweeter, you are on your own. You won't be able to say you haven't been warned.

My Onkyo 805 has certified 4-ohms performance. I was trying to figure out how much watts/channel it would actually be continuously producing in the receiver's 4-ohms setting with 4-ohms speakers like LSi's. It turned out to be about 151 watts/channel.

dkg999

dkg999 wrote: »

If Onkyo certifies it, then by all means crank that ****' up :rolleyes:

One more time!

Personally I would listen to Cfrizz, but my guess is that you won't. Carry on, cheerio, and have a nice life. Call when you melt down your tweeters or your AVR. I would also recommend a good fire extinguisher!

dorokusai

I would suggest you connect them and crank them up. Rock on!

be83663

dkg999 wrote: »

One more time!

Personally I would listen to Cfrizz, but my guess is that you won't. Carry on, cheerio, and have a nice life. Call when you melt down your tweeters or your AVR. I would also recommend a good fire extinguisher!

demaples wrote:

I just did an upgrade on my surround and probably over did it but that's me. Started with an Onkyo 805 amp, with LSi25 fronts, LSi15 rears, Genesis sides but will probably upgrade those, PSW 650 subwoofer and LSIc center. All I can say is HOLD ON TO YOUR HAT AND EAR PLUGS!! I wanted good surround but still have good music and it works. I bought most of my equipment off of ebay and didn't spend near the suggested list price, about $3500.

He has a better speaker system than you do, and is using Onkyo 805, the same as mine, without any problem, as stated in:

I haven't noticed any problems and the system sounds fantastic. It definitely rocks the house.


So I guess I will follow his fate too!

be83663

dorokusai wrote: »

I would suggest you connect them and crank them up. Rock on!

Thanks!

dkg999

You have a lot to learn grasshopper!

As I said previously, and supported by Mr Dorokusai, crank it up and rock on!

maximillian

be83663 wrote: »

demaples wrote:

He has a better speaker system than you do, and is using Onkyo 805, the same as mine, without any problem, as stated in:

I haven't noticed any problems and the system sounds fantastic. It definitely rocks the house.

I am glad it worked out for you. For what it's worth... I am in LA for work and dropped in at Fry's. They had a couple LSi9's hooked up to an 805 so I wanted to hear them to see how they really sounded. To me they sounded flat. My RTi6's sound better. Since I know that this shouldn't be the case, I believe that 805 is starving them of power. The other possibility is that the demo units were beat up and possibly broken.

tonyb

If what you want to hear is that you'll be ok,then by all means,fire it up.Any damage that may happen running 4 ohm speakers off a receiver may take a while depending on the volume you choose.But why buy stuff if you can't crank her up? Your money friend,spend it as you will.May I suggest you read up on distortion,what it is,how you get it,and what damage it can do.

be83663

dkg999 wrote: »

You have a lot to learn grasshopper!

As I said previously, and supported by Mr Dorokusai, crank it up and rock on!

I am not talking about which amplifier would do the best job for the LSi series. If money wasn't an issue I would go with the McIntosh, right? I am trying to figure out if I can make a use of a current receiver that I have. If Onkyo 805 is not capable of handling 4-ohms speakers, then it would not have a certified 4-ohms performance. I am aware that separate amp, pre-amp and digital decoder would refine the sound quality greatly. But I am not willing to spend that much money on separate components now; I am just trying to set up a 7.1 Home Theatre system, less a stereo system just for the music. I know you have a great system with a separate amp; good for you! But I hope you can see what I am trying to learn from this forums, whether I can use LSi's with my Onkyo 805 or not, because I have to live with what I have too.

I have to admit that my parents are still using over 10 year old, then-top-of-the-line $2,000 Onkyo receiver with now also over 10 year old 4-ohms McIntosh HT-1 front speakers ($1,000 each) and a McIntosh 4-ohms center speaker ($1,000), but beginning this year the center speaker tweeter just gave away its last breath; so I thought it is because the speaker setting was set too high for the center speaker compared to the front speakers, because I had lost a microphone for calibrating the speaker system level when I first got the receiver. I just hope that my POLK LSi's won't have the same fate as the McIntosh center speaker. The other front 4-ohms McIntosh speakers are still working fine after all those years! :cool:

ben62670

Dude LISTEN!
Yes it is capable of carrying a 4ohm load. So is a 1/2 ton pickup carrying a 1000 pounds. If you carry a 1000 pounds in a half ton pickup, and drive it like it didn't have that load in it guess what? Shorter lived, and lack of performance. If you needed to carry a 1000lbs (4 ohms) in the back of your truck would you purchase a 1/2 ton, or a One ton. Watts is not Watts. There are more to amps than watts, and distortion specs, but these are thrown at consumers like they are the be all end all.

be83663

ben62670 wrote: »

Dude LISTEN!
Yes it is capable of carrying a 4ohm load. So is a 1/2 ton pickup carrying a 1000 pounds. If you carry a 1000 pounds in a half ton pickup, and drive it like it didn't have that load in it guess what? Shorter lived, and lack of performance. If you needed to carry a 1000lbs (4 ohms) in the back of your truck would you purchase a 1/2 ton, or a One ton. Watts is not Watts. There are more to amps than watts, and distortion specs, but these are thrown at consumers like they are the be all end all.

So the Onkyo people are saying that their 1/2 ton truck is capable of carrying a 1,000 lbs, but I should drive it with such load only very occasionally at my own expense; or maybe they are telling me that I should drive it around only with 500 lbs at most, and just be content knowing the fact that I could drive it around with 1,000 lbs if I want to but I shoud not, just like people drive Hummers just because it can drive off-road even though they don't actually have to drive it off-road; it just gives them peace of mind even though they won't use it for that purpose. Well, I will just drive my Onkyo around with 1,000 lbs (yes, 4-ohms speakers) all the time because that is the only truck I have for now. But, thanks for your analogy; I really do.

ben62670

be83663 wrote: »

So the Onkyo people are saying that their 1/2 ton truck are capable or carrying a 1,000 lbs, but I should drive it with such load very occasionally at my own expense; or maybe I should drive it around only with 500 lbs at most, but just be content knowing the fact that I could drive it around with 1,000 lbs if I want to, just like people drive Hummers just because of what it can do off-road even though they don't have to drive it off-road. Well, I will just drive my Onkyo around with 1,000 lbs all the time because that is the only truck I have for now. But, thanks for your analogy.

Your funny:D
I understand that you have the half ton truck, and need to carry the 1000lb load, because that is what you have, but you for sure would be happier driving them with a one ton truck. I see no fires in your future. I don't see any real damage except blowing a tweeter if not careful.
BTW
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Well a woodchuck could chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood. Well ask some questions again when you actually really want true answers even if they are not the answers you want to hear. Say thanks to all the boys, and girls that have spent time trying to help you.
Enjoy
Ben

cfrizz

You're funny Ben!

But actually I don't need to be thanked by someone who is hard headed & is probably going to ruin a pair of great speakers. I'd rather have him just go away & not come back when he blows them up to tell us that he blew them up!:rolleyes:

ben62670 wrote: »

Well ask some questions again when you actually really want true answers even if they are not the answers you want to hear. Say thanks to all the boys, and girls that have spent time trying to help you.
Enjoy
Ben

tonyb

Some come here asking for advice,then when they get it,argue the points.If justification is what you want,then go ahead and crank it up.The members here are not trying to sell you anything and only offer real world advice threw decades of experience,Take it or leave it,no harm,no foul.

NotaSuv

ben62670 wrote: »

BTW
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Well a woodchuck could chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood. Well ask some questions again when you actually really want true answers even if they are not the answers you want to hear. Say thanks to all the boys, and girls that have spent time trying to help you.
Enjoy
Ben

quite a lot of wood! (Assuming the furry
little critter chucked at all. I have it on good authority that
they're stubborn and don't take direction very well.)

Per hour (median amount): 158 butt cords.
Per day: 684 butt cords.

Extrapolating from those figures:

Per month: 20748 butt cords.
Per year (assuming 364 days - Woodchucks take Groundhog Day off):
248976 butt cords.

Of course, the Mad Scientist's Network has different figures, claiming
that the average woodchuck can chuck about 700 pounds of wood in the
same amount of time it takes him to build his burrow. They don't say
how long that takes, alas, but the figures are interesting:


and yes I would crank it up and enjoy

NotaSuv

tonyb wrote: »

Some come here asking for advice,then when they get it,argue the points.If justification is what you want,then go ahead and crank it up.The members here are not trying to sell you anything and only offer real world advice threw decades of experience,Take it or leave it,no harm,no foul.

being new here I am kind of amazed at the number who say they are clueless, ask for a solution to a problem and then disagree with solutions offered....

I think this would be called trolling, in other areas of the net


But by all means crank it up, why listen to those with experince?

be83663

My precious LSi tweeters for the center and two fronts are not responding; the rear pair and the sorround LSi's are fine so far. Maybe I blew them trying to use my lovely certified 4-homs performance Onkyo 805 with LSi 4-ohms speakers. I did put the receiver at 4-ohms mode to limit the current and not to have it overworked. So, can you guys with some awesome separate amplifers and preamplifiers get together to buy me a nice amplifier, a pre-amp, and a decoder for my LSi's? I want 7.1 Home Theatre system by the way. My LSi series speakers deserve a nice amp and I should have spent at least extra $3,000-4,000 (I want decent ones) for amp and pre-amp at the beginning like you audiophile experts have advised me, but I did not buy knowing that they are better than $1,000 receiver. I really should have known that separate audio-grade systems like you guys and girls have are better than my mass-produced receiver. Guys, you are awesome! You guys have lovely sound system at home! Buy me a nice 7.1 amp! Thanks you guys.


Don't worry guys; I do want to buy McIntosh amp and preamp sometime in the future. But for now, it will be my Onkyo!!! And I will let you guys know if mine does not last through the ordeal though to make you guys feel proud that your guesses were right even though none of you actually blew a single LSi tweeter up with Onkyo 805 and happy that one more person has to buy an amp like you did! I did get some helpful insights from only a selected few in here!

cfrizz

Adds one more putz to ignore list! See ya you idiot!

demaples

So all that being said since I have about the same setup, what good equipment is recommeded to help the 805 push the lsi25s and 15s?

cfrizz

Welcome to Club Polk DeMaples.

You can pick up a 5-7 channel amp on Audiogon. It's not cheap, but it's less money than buying new.

Brands we like around here are Rotel, Sunfire, Parasound, Outlaw, Adcom, B & K.

Another new option is Emotiva. They have a new 5 channel 250wpc amp called the XPA-5 for around 800.00.

http://www.emotiva.com/