How to set-up two pair of side surrounds in a multi-channel arrangement

Larry Chanin

I have a home theater arrangement with two rows of seating, and I'd like to place two sets of side surrounds (f/x500s) adjacent to each seating row.

In an other forum I was told that if I connected a pair of side surround speakers to a multi-channel receiver's side surround amplifiers (i.e., connected them to the speaker posts) and ran a line-level connection from the side surround PRE-Outs to an external amplifier this would damage the receiver.

Is this true?

If so, do you have suggestions on the best means of setting-up two pair of side surrounds?

Thanks.

Larry

RuSsMaN

...but a pre-out is a pre-out, what speakers you have hooked up where shouldnt make a flips difference as far as the pre-amp out goes....

I hope this isnt incorrect advice, but I don't see how you would damage your rec, using an extra amp....

Cheers,
Russ

hoosier21

Larry,

What you described sounds 100% safe to your receiver. I would give some thought to this, if you are getting an external amp anyway, think about getting a good amp and hooking both pairs of speakers to the one amp. I "THINK" I would set mine up this way if I was going to use two sets of side surrounds. Any load I can take off the receiver I will do it.

Just my 2cents
:rolleyes:

Aaron

I wonder how that would sound with 2 sets of bipole/dipole speakers in such close proximity to each other. Wouldn't that mess up the diffusion sound of those speakers?

Aaron

RuSsMaN

I'm with Aaron, I think one pair (side or rear) should be Direct radiating, if one pair is di/bipole....

Kinda seems like there would be 'too' much going on between the two speaks, if they were both di/bipole....(the drivers facing each other)

Cheers,
Russ

Larry Chanin

Thanks everyone for your very helpful responses.

hoosier21:

Your insightful response really touches upon what prompted me to ask this question about extra surrounds in the first place. It actually stemmed from an other much more basic question about adding amplification to my current set-up. Please forgive a slightly long-winded explanation.

You see I've currently got a very nice, but old Pioneer VXS-D1S Receiver powering a home theater arrangement. Its set-up to deliver 130 watts each into a pair of Polk SDA 1Cs for front mains. Well, recently I joined Mike's SDA club and began reading from the real experts about how the SDAs should have some serious amplification. (By the way, Mike's club wasn't the forum where I got the misleading advice.)

So I began thinking about adding about 200 watts of external amplification for the mains. But then I figured "Why not just upgrade my receiver to one of those powerful, flagship models". I'm not a serious audiophile, and I can't afford the cost of serious separates, but a high-end receiver with supplemental amplification added later, if necessary, might fit into my scheme of things.

Naturally, I started considering at the largest available receiver, the Denon AVR-5800. It has 7 channels of 170 watts @ 8 omhs. But I know that the serious SDA aficionados would probably think that this would be insufficient. After all they have two ways of looking at watts, Receiver watts and REAL watts delivered by separate amplifiers. So I wanted to figure out a way of adding those serious front speaker amps without throwing away the Denon's front two channels at 170 watts each.

It occurred to me that maybe I could take the side surround PRE-OUTs and run them to the front AMP-INPUTS and then power two additional side surrounds. This brings me full circle to my original question, but admittedly secondary question.

But guess what, believe it or not, the AVR-5800 doesn't have accessable AMP-INPUTS, and so far I haven't been able to figure out how to reassign the front amplification to other uses.:rolleyes:

Thanks again.

Larry

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
I'm with Aaron, I think one pair (side or rear) should be Direct radiating, if one pair is di/bipole....

Kinda seems like there would be 'too' much going on between the two speaks, if they were both di/bipole....(the drivers facing each other)

Cheers,
Russ

Hi Russ and Aaron:

You may be right, but I was thinking this would be similar to a movie theater with multiple side surrounds.

Here's some excerpts from Denon's users manual describing the arrangement of side and back surrounds. You'll notice that the listener is placed in the null position of the dipole speaker. I thought that with two rows of seating both rows would be placed in the nulls creating an enveloping sound. I see the sound of each set of speakers mainly interacting with the front and back walls, not with each other.

Setting for primarily watching movies using diffusion type speakers for the surround speakers

Surround Layout

For the greatest sense of surround sound envelopment, diffuse radiation speakers such as bipolar types, or dipolar (THX) types, provide a wider dispersion than is possible to obtain from a direct radiating speaker (monopolar). Place these speakers at either side of the prime listening position, mounted above ear level.

It is best to place the surround speakers directly at the side or slightly to the front of the viewing position, and 60 to 90 cm above the ears.

The signals from the surround channels reflect off the walls as
shown on the diagram, creating an enveloping and realistic surround sound presentation.

For multi-channel music sources however, the use of bipolar or dipolar speakers mounted at the sides of the listening position may not be satisfactory in order to create a coherent 360 degree
surround sound field. Connect another pair of direct radiating speakers and place them at the rear corners of the room facing towards the prime listening position.

Larry

Aaron

For multi-channel music sources however, the use of bipolar or dipolar speakers mounted at the sides of the listening position may not be satisfactory in order to create a coherent 360 degree
surround sound field. Connect another pair of direct radiating speakers and place them at the rear corners of the room facing towards the prime listening position.[/B]

This is what I was alluding to, and exactly what Russ was saying. By the way, you're supposed to use direct radiating speakers for the rear center(s) in a 6.1/7.1 system.

Aaron

hoosier21

"It occurred to me that maybe I could take the side surround PRE-OUTs and run them to the front AMP-INPUTS and then power two additional side surrounds"

NO!! this cannot be done, I do not know of any receiver that will do this.

I would save my money, keep the Pioneer and get new amps, then after you get the amps look at getting a new processor/receiver or what ever.

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by hoosier21
"It occurred to me that maybe I could take the side surround PRE-OUTs and run them to the front AMP-INPUTS and then power two additional side surrounds"

NO!! this cannot be done, I do not know of any receiver that will do this.

Perhaps we're not using the same terminology. My receiver and the flagship Onkyo receiver normally have their AMP IN inputs and their PRE OUT outputs connected by a jumper plug. To connect an external amplifier the jumper plug is removed and the PRE OUT is connected to the line-level inputs of the external amplifier. With the connection broken between the receiver's AMP IN and PRE OUT connectors, its internal amplifier is now free to power other speakers. Any suitable line-level input connected to the receiver's AMP IN should now power the speaker posts assigned to that channel. So instead of using a line-level signal from an external Pre Amplifier we can use the line-level signal coming from the receiver's PRE OUT for the side surround channels.

Here's an excerpt from the Onkyo TX-DS989 user manual.
AMP IN and PRE OUT Connections

Larry

jeffeb3

I would at least look into the haman kardon avr 7000. I can almost guarantee it has the main ins. It is only like 1200 through circuit city.com and it boasts 75 amperes. The hk rep says most recievers have about 12 amperes.

Larry Chanin

Hi Jeff:

Thanks for the suggestion.

I took your advice and checked the specs on Hamon Kardon AVR-7000, it does have amplifier inputs on the fronts, side surrounds and center channels.

Unfortunately, it doesn't have back surround processing, i.e., THX Surround EX, DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete, etc.

Just as an aside:

One thing I frankly don't understand about interpreting amplifier ratings is how important is the peak current capacity in comparison to the various RMS wattages ratings. For instance, my current receiver is delivering 130 watts RMS into 8 ohms, versus the AVR-7000's 100 watts RMS into 8 ohms. I've been advised that my Polk SDA 1Cs should have over 200 watts of power.

Larry

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by Larry Chanin
I have a home theater arrangement with two rows of seating, and I'd like to place two sets of side surrounds (f/x500s) adjacent to each seating row.

In an other forum I was told that if I connected a pair of side surround speakers to a multi-channel receiver's side surround amplifiers (i.e., connected them to the speaker posts) and ran a line-level connection from the side surround PRE-Outs to an external amplifier this would damage the receiver.

Is this true?

If so, do you have suggestions on the best means of setting-up two pair of side surrounds?

Thanks.

Larry

I posed this question to the Customer Service Manager of Onkyo/Integra with respect to their Onkyo TX-DS989 flagship receiver. It has Pre outs and AMP Inputs. He doesn't directly answer the question about damaging the receiver, but does say that the proposed configuration won't work. Here's his response:

If you hook an amp to any of the pre-outs you can not use the existing speaker connections. You would need a amp with a volume control to run your 2 sets of surround sides.

What you could do is run from the pre amp out for the sides and run the two sets of speakers from the amp.

I find this response somewhat difficult to interpret. Since I think he is saying you could run 2 sets of surrounds with an amp if it had volume control this would seem to imply that no damage would result if the speakers remained connected and the Pre outs were used. I assume that the problem he sees with this arrangement is that it won't be possible to set the levels of the second set of surrounds without a volume control. Couldn't that problem be overcome by adding an attenuator or a small buffer amp between the Preout and Amp In connections?

EDIT:

After asking for clarification, the Customer Service Manager confirmed my suspicions.

I was able to speak with engineering and you are correct with the last email. You can use the units side pre-outs with a buffer amp (with volume control) back into the front ins without risking damage to the receiver.
Sorry for the confusion.

Larry