best use for amps -bi-wire or bi-amp?

stevew14

I have rti150 mains, monitor 10b for surrounds, csi40 center, and an old yamaha for rear center. I am using a Denon 2802 for pre/HT processor and am driving the center and rear center with the Denon internal amps.

Currently I am driving the mains bi-wired with a Carver 250wpc@8ohms amp and the surrounds with an old Carver receiver 130 wpc@ 8 ohms amp section. I am wondering if I would get better results if I bi-amp using the bigger amp for the low end of the mains only and the lesser powered Carver's amp for the mids/highs. This would mean moving the surrounds back to the Denons surround channel amps. I enjoy movies alot and don't want to shortchange the surround speakers of available power/headroom, but I listen much more to 2 channel music than movies and I thought the biamp setup I've described might yield better sound/ performance than simply bi-wiring. Do you think the Denon's 90wpc would still be enough for the surrounds without clipping on movies and possibly damaging the monitor 10s?

I have just purchased a parasound pld 1100 preamp and will be feeding the analog out from my Toshiba 9200 dvd player to the parasound and then ont the amp/amps and speakers and just want to get the best out of what I have. I know the proof is in the trying but I just wondered if anyone had any input up front for me. Thanks for any opinions. It's always interesting reading!

stevew14

anyone got any input for me?

HBombToo

Originally posted by stevew14
Currently Do you think the Denon's 90wpc would still be enough for the surrounds without clipping on movies and possibly damaging the monitor 10s?

90 Watts is sufficient and the 10's will be fine. I think the 10's are excellent speakers and I'll bet you enjoy the hell out of them.

Does your Toshiba have 6 channel audio out and if yes does it have bass management?

For 2 channel I think a great comparison for you to do will be the different dacs between your Toshiba and your current AVR.

I have a feeling the dac will sound much better from your Toshiba but you have to try it and let us know.

HBomb

stevew14

I have enjoyed the 10s for many years and the new 150s even more! The 9200 does have 6 channel outs but no bass management . The 2 channel dac comparison was done long ago and the Toshiba wins hands down. I prefer the sound much more than the Denon dac. I am just not sure about driving the tweeters in the 150s with the 130wpc Carver and the woofers/ mid bass driver with the higher powered amp. I would thingk the tweeters wouldn't need nearly as much power and isolating the lower frequency signal from the highs would benefit the sound more than my current bi-wire setup, but I hear different things from different folks. I guess I'll just have to try it and see.

HBombToo

Originally posted by stevew14
I would thingk the tweeters wouldn't need nearly as much power and isolating the lower frequency signal from the highs would benefit the sound more than my current bi-wire setup, but I hear different things from different folks. I guess I'll just have to try it and see.

I am a firm believer in bi-amping. Bi-wire... I don't think there is same benifit.

Bi-amping with 2 different rated amps amps I'm not sure of. Keep in mind that the same preout is being split but it sounds reasonable adding more headroom to lows. If your not clipping now then I don't think much improvement will be heard IMO.

If an external crossover were used for a true bi-amp configuration then it would be a more viable option but then I think there are a slew of other isuues to overcome. On the other hand, try it and see... WTF, right? at the very minimum you may see an enhancement and you can give us the skinney on it.

I think your headed down the right path and will prove fun.;)

HBomb

stevew14

Actually, the parasound has two sets of pre outs, I wonder if that makes a difference.

HBombToo

Originally posted by stevew14
Actually, the parasound has two sets of pre outs, I wonder if that makes a difference.

Has to be WAY BETTER than an RCA Y!!!

Do you have a link for the parasound?

stevew14

at parasound.com under vintage products it is listed and there are specs and also a downloadable manual. Sorry I don't know how to attach a link!!

HBombToo

Cool... Thats a great feature!
Plug and Play and let us know what you think.
HBomb

stevew14

I hooked up the new preamp, turned it on and listened to some really familiar material. It was instantly, obviously a big improvement over the Denon 2802 pre amp. I had been preparing myself for a not so noticeable difference, but was very pleasantly surprised. No regrets.

After a while, I decided to try the bimping since I had the rack pulled out and all the wiring loose again. It didn't take long to realize that I actually preferred it bi-wired from a single amp. It just sounded more natural to me.

I tidied up al the wiring again, pushed the rack back against the wall and listened some more. Smiles were all over my face! I hated to have to come to work this morning. I actually contemplated taking a vacation day just so I could check it out some more. Oh well, since I'm here, I guess I might as well get to work. Thanks for the input.

Later

jrausch

Welcome to a more solid 2/ch listening experience. I had a Denon 5800 that was a very solid surround piece, but had no imaging in pure stereo mode. I understand where your comming from my friend. Just be aware that you are now listening to what the audio engineers had in mind when they mixed the music. If the original recording did not have alot of bass you will only get whats presently there. The trade off is a very solid and very clean image. You may want to think about a sub to bring out the full impact of your music if you find the lower end is lacking a bit. I think to better understand how much power your system actually uses, you should find a high end shop where they have a nice amp that has power meters. Have them show you what 25watts sounds like, you may be pleasantly surprised. Unless you are really cranking up your movies and the explosions are clipping your amp you typically won’t need that much power. Again a powered sub would help in this situation too. This would take the entire energy robbing low end and let the sub amp take the load leaving more power reserves for the rest of your speakers. I just bought a P/LD 2000 and I will let you know how much of an impact the balanced inputs and outputs make. The 1100 will go out the door for 200 if you know someone.

stevew14

So far, bass is not lacking at all. I know it's not really high end, but my Carver tfm35x seems to do just fine. I know what you mean about the power meters. I have yet to see them hit even 50 watts. Five to twenty-five seems to be the range for my listening. Of course that's just going by the Carver meters. I have the DefTech 200 sub(250 watt) that kicks in when I play movies(speakers set to small), but for two channel its source-preamp direct-amp--speakers, I can't wait to get home! I just paid 300 for mine. I wish I had known sooner.

jrausch

Looking for some ear candy for your new upgrade? Check this CD out, you will be glad you did.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000690BJ/ref=pd_sim_music_1/102-4875510-2910500?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

stevew14

Thanks for the suggestion. I have their self- titled "Fourplay" and enjoy it. I might check out that one too. I'm always looking for good sounds. I picked up "For Duke" and "Fatha" from M&K website. It's two old direct to disc recordings from the 70's relased on 20 bit mastered Gold CD. It sounds superb! I've also just recently gotten into Diana Krall and stumbled across Tony Bennett with KD Lang. All good.

I like a wide variety of music though, and since all of my upgrades this last year, some of the best sounding to me are things like Mark Knopfler, Peter Gabriel, Joni Mitchell, Tori Amos, Lorena McKennit and Sara McLaughlin. Also bands like California Guitar Trio, King Crimson, Yes, Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, Liquid Tension Experiment, Bozzio, Levin and Stevens, anything with Tony Levin for that matter! I also have acquired a small collection of solo guitar works by artists like Ralph Towner, Michael Hedges, Leo Kottke, and Alex DeGrassi. Again, all good!

Isn't life wonderful? Anyway thanks for the suggesion, I'll check it out. Maybe an early Christmas present to myself.

Later

Oh, I guess this isn't so much about biamping any more is it?

jrausch

Hey Steve,

I thought I would post my comparison between these two. Like I had said in my previous post, I purchased the 2000 for its balanced inputs and outputs. I haven’t bought the XLR cables yet so my comparison is based on the un-balanced connections. The 1100 depending on the source material could be a bit grainy and slightly harsh on the top end. I attributed this to my source DVD player that is not meant for any serious 2/ch listening, due to its top end brightness that is used to enhance movie details. The DAC's on the Tosh 6200 are not up to your 9200's overall detail and smoothness, so your experience may be different. I did not expect any difference between the Pre's due to their similar specs and components. What I found was an immediate improvement in several areas. The 1100 IMO is a very clean pre-amp and has a very solid soundstage image and impressive bass response. What the 2000 has is the same solid imaging, but that’s where the similarities end.

The 2000 gave my laid back LSi15's a more forward sounding tighter slam (a very Krell like sound). I could not believe how much cleaner and more alive everything sounded. Any grain or edginess that the 1100 produced is completely done away with here. The transition from the top end to the very bottom is seamless. My friend who works as a salesman at a local high end audio/video store was over for a listen at the time. He sells a lot of Krell and Martin Logan systems and he was also immediately impressed with how well the system sounded. He also compared the sound to Krell. He had heard the 15’s before and liked the way they sounded, but now he was thoroughly impressed with the way they performed. His company had sold Polk’s in the past, but dropped them when to the Circuit City deal went through. He said if it wasn’t for the fact that he could buy Logan’s at cost he would opt more for Polk’s new line. I believe the 1100’s sound is 65% of its bigger brother and this would explain the initial price difference. The 1100 sold new for $850 while the 2000 sold for $1500. Now that people are moving toward multi channel systems they are selling this stuff off for cheap. Now the difference in price between the two is separated only by around 200-250 bucks. If you feel that you like the way your 1100 sounds and want to opt for the cleanest possible sound, you would be hard pressed to find something better in this price range. I bought my 1100 for $245 and landed the 2000 for $415, so I could easily E-bay the 1100 for $200 and still make good on this deal. I can’t wait to get a SACD player and some XLR cables. I expect a more 3 dimensional slightly larger sound stage from this upgrade. I must say I listen to the Lsi’s a lot more than my SDA’s now, they are just so dam clean.