DD 5.1 sounds better than PCM, whats wrong with my ears!

Gizmo99
Gizmo99 Posts: 169
edited March 2008 in Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions
Setup:

1) PS3 -> HDMI -> Onkyo 805
2) PS3 set to bitstream

Test:

3) watched Pirates - At Worlds End by selecting the DD 5.1 track
4) watched the same scene but this time selecting the PCM track

Results:

3) The DD5.1 tracked sounded brighter, louder and fooled my ears into believing it has more "detail"
4) Did not sound as loud, fooled my ears into believing it didnt have as much detail. Not as sharp / bright.

We all know that PCM > DD 5.1. Is something not setup properly?

I know PS3 set to bitstream will still play the PCM track when I select PCM on the BluRay.


Any comments welcome
Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
Front: LSI15
Center: LSIC
Sourround: FxiA4
Rear: Fxi3
Sub: Bic H100
TV: Sony 52' XBR4


"The more time you spend researching here, the less money you will have" :D
Post edited by Gizmo99 on
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Comments

  • tcrossma
    tcrossma Posts: 1,301
    edited February 2008
    I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that PCM downmixes to 2-channel. So if you play a PCM track from your PS3 (which is set to output as bitstream) it would be downmixed to 2-channel in the PS3 and sent to the AVR. The AVR would then use PLII or some other matrix decoding to attempt to recreate the surround format. But an awful lot would get lost in this mutli-step translation.

    I guess i'm not one of the ones who knows that PCM > DD 5.1.
    Speakers: Polk LSi15
    Pre: Adcom GFP-750 with HT Bypass
    Amp: Pass Labs X-150
    CD/DVD Player: Classe CDP-10
    Interconnects: MIT Shortgun S3 Pro XLR
    Speaker cables: MIT MH-750 bi-wire
    TT:Micro Seiki DD-35
    Cartridge:Denon DL-160
    Phono Pre:PS Audio GCPH
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  • millerman 3732
    millerman 3732 Posts: 1,488
    edited February 2008
    What does the display on your 805 have on it during PCM playback?

    My shows this.

    Blu-Ray
    multipcm

    (press the display button on the remote.)

    MCH PCM 5.1
    fs. 48 kHz
    Casey
    H/T: Epson 6500ub
    Sony UBP-X800
    Toshiba HD-XA2 (HD-DVD, CD)
    Onkyo 805 (pre-amp)
    Outlaw 7125
    Polk RTi 10 (bi-amped)
    Polk CSi5 (bi-amped)
    Polk RTi6
    SVS PB 12 plus/2
    Velodyne SMS-1

    TV Rig: Samsung 50'' 4k display
    Polk Signa-1 Surround bar
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  • Gizmo99
    Gizmo99 Posts: 169
    edited February 2008
    It says PCM and I had the listening mode to "Multi Channel". When I toggle to DD, the red "Dobly Digital" lights up

    I KNOW PCM sounds better than DD5.1 but as a novice listener, the DD5.1 did seem more sharp and provided more detail. <bangs head with a bat>


    millerman 3732 wrote: »
    What does the display on your 805 have on it during PCM playback?
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
    Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
    Front: LSI15
    Center: LSIC
    Sourround: FxiA4
    Rear: Fxi3
    Sub: Bic H100
    TV: Sony 52' XBR4


    "The more time you spend researching here, the less money you will have" :D
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    My XA1 multi channel PCM sounds better than my DD or DTS decoder in my HK. A much fuller sound. The decoder in my HK, makes it sound like I was equ'ing it in a "V" style, with mids turned down.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • millerman 3732
    millerman 3732 Posts: 1,488
    edited February 2008
    Gizmo99 wrote: »
    It says PCM and I had the listening mode to "Multi Channel". When I toggle to DD, the red "Dobly Digital" lights up

    I KNOW PCM sounds better than DD5.1 but as a novice listener, the DD5.1 did seem more sharp and provided more detail. <bangs head with a bat>

    It should say MULTI PCM you shouldn't need any kind of listening modes to get 5.1, when you press the display button on the remote does it say MCH PCM 5.1, fs. 48 kHz.?
    Casey
    H/T: Epson 6500ub
    Sony UBP-X800
    Toshiba HD-XA2 (HD-DVD, CD)
    Onkyo 805 (pre-amp)
    Outlaw 7125
    Polk RTi 10 (bi-amped)
    Polk CSi5 (bi-amped)
    Polk RTi6
    SVS PB 12 plus/2
    Velodyne SMS-1

    TV Rig: Samsung 50'' 4k display
    Polk Signa-1 Surround bar
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  • tcrossma
    tcrossma Posts: 1,301
    edited February 2008
    jakelm wrote: »
    My XA1 multi channel PCM sounds better than my DD or DTS decoder in my HK. A much fuller sound. The decoder in my HK, makes it sound like I was equ'ing it in a "V" style, with mids turned down.

    I'm not sure we're comparing apples to apples here. It seems to me as if the PS3 (which is outputting as bitstream over the digital connection) is attempting to play a PCM track.

    That'll be a 2-channel track that goes out to the AVR, which will then attempt to decode it into mutli-channel format using PLII or some other matrixed decoding method.

    At least that's my interpretation of what's going on here.

    jakelm: Is your XA1 connected via a digital connection and sending a mutli-channel PCM format over that to the AVR? Or is it decoding inside the XA1 and sending PCM over the 5.1 analog cables?

    Maybe i'm just wrong on this whole PCM thing, so someone please correct me if I am. I'm just under the impression that PCM and Bitstream are transfer methods, while DD and DTS are encoding methods. Two completely different creatures.
    Speakers: Polk LSi15
    Pre: Adcom GFP-750 with HT Bypass
    Amp: Pass Labs X-150
    CD/DVD Player: Classe CDP-10
    Interconnects: MIT Shortgun S3 Pro XLR
    Speaker cables: MIT MH-750 bi-wire
    TT:Micro Seiki DD-35
    Cartridge:Denon DL-160
    Phono Pre:PS Audio GCPH
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  • Gizmo99
    Gizmo99 Posts: 169
    edited February 2008
    millerman 3732 wrote: »
    It should say MULTI PCM, when you press the display button on the remote does it say MCH PCM, fs. 48 kHz.?

    On the PS3, yes it says MCH PCM, 48hz. and ~6 something MBPS
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
    Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
    Front: LSI15
    Center: LSIC
    Sourround: FxiA4
    Rear: Fxi3
    Sub: Bic H100
    TV: Sony 52' XBR4


    "The more time you spend researching here, the less money you will have" :D
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  • millerman 3732
    millerman 3732 Posts: 1,488
    edited February 2008
    Gizmo99 wrote: »
    On the PS3, yes it says MCH PCM, 48hz. and ~6 something MBPS

    What about the 805?
    Casey
    H/T: Epson 6500ub
    Sony UBP-X800
    Toshiba HD-XA2 (HD-DVD, CD)
    Onkyo 805 (pre-amp)
    Outlaw 7125
    Polk RTi 10 (bi-amped)
    Polk CSi5 (bi-amped)
    Polk RTi6
    SVS PB 12 plus/2
    Velodyne SMS-1

    TV Rig: Samsung 50'' 4k display
    Polk Signa-1 Surround bar
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  • Gizmo99
    Gizmo99 Posts: 169
    edited February 2008
    millerman 3732 wrote: »
    What about the 805?

    On the 805, it says PCM and I applied the MULTI CHANNEL listening mode.
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
    Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
    Front: LSI15
    Center: LSIC
    Sourround: FxiA4
    Rear: Fxi3
    Sub: Bic H100
    TV: Sony 52' XBR4


    "The more time you spend researching here, the less money you will have" :D
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  • millerman 3732
    millerman 3732 Posts: 1,488
    edited February 2008
    You shouldn't need to do that, check the setting on your PS3 and make sure any down conversion is turned off.
    Casey
    H/T: Epson 6500ub
    Sony UBP-X800
    Toshiba HD-XA2 (HD-DVD, CD)
    Onkyo 805 (pre-amp)
    Outlaw 7125
    Polk RTi 10 (bi-amped)
    Polk CSi5 (bi-amped)
    Polk RTi6
    SVS PB 12 plus/2
    Velodyne SMS-1

    TV Rig: Samsung 50'' 4k display
    Polk Signa-1 Surround bar
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Gizmo99
    Gizmo99 Posts: 169
    edited February 2008
    millerman 3732 wrote: »
    You shouldn't need to do that, check the setting on your PS3 and make sure any down conversion is turned off.

    Conversion? What kind of conversion?
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
    Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
    Front: LSI15
    Center: LSIC
    Sourround: FxiA4
    Rear: Fxi3
    Sub: Bic H100
    TV: Sony 52' XBR4


    "The more time you spend researching here, the less money you will have" :D
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  • millerman 3732
    millerman 3732 Posts: 1,488
    edited February 2008
    I really don't know that much about the PS3 but of the 3 blu-ray players that I've owned there has been a setting in the audio set up menu that says PCM down conversion (in some way or another) that down converts a 5.1 PCM signal to 2.0 signal, that needs to be turned off.
    Casey
    H/T: Epson 6500ub
    Sony UBP-X800
    Toshiba HD-XA2 (HD-DVD, CD)
    Onkyo 805 (pre-amp)
    Outlaw 7125
    Polk RTi 10 (bi-amped)
    Polk CSi5 (bi-amped)
    Polk RTi6
    SVS PB 12 plus/2
    Velodyne SMS-1

    TV Rig: Samsung 50'' 4k display
    Polk Signa-1 Surround bar
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Gizmo99
    Gizmo99 Posts: 169
    edited February 2008
    millerman 3732 wrote: »
    I really don't know that much about the PS3 but of the 3 blu-ray players that I've owned there has been a setting in the audio set up menu that says PCM down conversion (in some way or another) that down converts a 5.1 PCM signal to 2.0 signal, that needs to be turned off.

    I dont think the PS3 has this kind of option :(
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
    Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
    Front: LSI15
    Center: LSIC
    Sourround: FxiA4
    Rear: Fxi3
    Sub: Bic H100
    TV: Sony 52' XBR4


    "The more time you spend researching here, the less money you will have" :D
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    tcrossma wrote: »
    I'm not sure we're comparing apples to apples here. It seems to me as if the PS3 (which is outputting as bitstream over the digital connection) is attempting to play a PCM track.

    jakelm: Is your XA1 connected via a digital connection and sending a mutli-channel PCM format over that to the AVR? Or is it decoding inside the XA1 and sending PCM over the 5.1 analog cables?

    Maybe i'm just wrong on this whole PCM thing, so someone please correct me if I am. I'm just under the impression that PCM and Bitstream are transfer methods, while DD and DTS are encoding methods. Two completely different creatures.


    Your right, we are not comparing apples to apples. I am 5.1 analog out. But, the decoding is going on in the XA1 like your PS3, with PCM.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • millerman 3732
    millerman 3732 Posts: 1,488
    edited February 2008
    Have you tried these settings in the audio output set up? It looks like you have to turn on 5.1 PCM.

    soundoutput002.jpg

    soundoutput003.jpg
    Casey
    H/T: Epson 6500ub
    Sony UBP-X800
    Toshiba HD-XA2 (HD-DVD, CD)
    Onkyo 805 (pre-amp)
    Outlaw 7125
    Polk RTi 10 (bi-amped)
    Polk CSi5 (bi-amped)
    Polk RTi6
    SVS PB 12 plus/2
    Velodyne SMS-1

    TV Rig: Samsung 50'' 4k display
    Polk Signa-1 Surround bar
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  • Gizmo99
    Gizmo99 Posts: 169
    edited February 2008
    Thanks for the screen shot. I will double check when I get home but I am pretty sure all the settings are turned on.

    millerman 3732 wrote: »
    Have you tried these settings in the audio output set up? It looks like you have to turn on 5.1 PCM.

    soundoutput002.jpg

    soundoutput003.jpg
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
    Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
    Front: LSI15
    Center: LSIC
    Sourround: FxiA4
    Rear: Fxi3
    Sub: Bic H100
    TV: Sony 52' XBR4


    "The more time you spend researching here, the less money you will have" :D
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • millerman 3732
    millerman 3732 Posts: 1,488
    edited February 2008
    This page, http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/audiooutput.html , says that Linear 2ch PCM is the default setting so you may have to turn that off, like I said I don't know anything about the PS3 so maybe someone that owns one can help you out with this.
    Casey
    H/T: Epson 6500ub
    Sony UBP-X800
    Toshiba HD-XA2 (HD-DVD, CD)
    Onkyo 805 (pre-amp)
    Outlaw 7125
    Polk RTi 10 (bi-amped)
    Polk CSi5 (bi-amped)
    Polk RTi6
    SVS PB 12 plus/2
    Velodyne SMS-1

    TV Rig: Samsung 50'' 4k display
    Polk Signa-1 Surround bar
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Montoya
    Montoya Posts: 506
    edited March 2008
    I have had the same issues with the PCM 5.1 setting vs. DD . I am running a Pioneer Elite 81TXV . I know that some movies state that they have a dedicated track for "PCM 5.1 uncompressed" on those movies PCM does sound better Resident Evil Apocalypse is an example of the labeled PCM 5.1 track. So it might be it has to be labeled on the box that it has a dedicated PCM 5.1 track. But I suppose I could be wrong being it is just a guess.
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