Have RTi12s -Best center? CSi5, CSiA6 or LSiC??

mmadden28

I just bought a set of RTi12s (cherry), planning on getting an Onkyo TX-SR805 in the next few weeks. Also getting FXi3s soon for the surrounds. Sub is still yet to be determined.

I want to get a good Center for my HT setup. I would say that 80% is HT 20% music (unless the kids and wife are away-then I just play with HT and Music at High levels ). I actually want the best I can get (within $$ reason) and that my system can handle.

CSi5 vs. CSi A6
From what I can gather the CSI A6 seems to be the new equivalent of the older CSi5. Is that correct? If so, is there much of a difference in sound quality?

CSi Vs. LSi
I've heard that the LSi series is true audiophile quality, or at least the truest sounding, blah blah blah. Since the Center channel is VERY important for HT, and since the wife seems to have the most difficulty with dialogs in movies I would go for the option that would help me justify .
Would I be better off spending a bit more and getting an LSiC center?
I have a few concerns with the LSiC:
Its rated 4 ohms compared to the 8 ohms on all my other speakers-but I heard (not confirmed) that the Onkyo can drive 4 and/or 8-so not sure if that woudl be an issue.
Would the LSiC blend/match well (timber )with the RTi12s?

And finally would the Onkyo drive my setup fine?

Thanks

xandra

from what I can gather the CSI A6 seems to be the new equivalent of the older CSi5. Is that correct? If so, is there much of a difference in sound quality?

mmadden28 - I have the same question - I currently have RTi10's & CSi3 (have thought about uprading to CSi5 - but hardly any available currently none at a even a good deal)

So, has anyone out there heard the A6's?

---

as to the Onkyo 805: I currently have the 705 with my RTi10's bi-Amped, and it's just enuf... (pre bi-amping 705 definitely didn't have enuf juice).

In speaking with an Onkyo tech, power handling on 805 and up is supposed to be significantly better - particularly in regard to handling the fronts, so if he's correct it's likely you'll be just fine.

If you're not totally satisfied: You can always bi-amp assuming you're willing to lose the backs. Of course, if you have the dinero's AND space buying a dedicated Power amp - is the way to go.

Mikedabike

I have the RTi 12's, CSi A6, with RTi 4's for surround. I also have the Onkyo 805. The A6 is a good match if you cant find the 5. As far the 805 it does allright in 2 channel but in surround mode I have to really crank it up to get a decent volume. As I push the volume louder they really start to sing. When the budget allows I am going to amp them seperately to try to get some of the dynamics I hear with the Onkyo at high volume at a lower level.

cfrizz

All CSi & FXi speakers are timbre matched for the RTI series.

Mmadden, the LSIC is a whole nother kettle of fish. It is NOT timbre matched to the RTI series & is 4ohm sensitive which requires more power than your receiver can give it to operate to its full potential.

All speakers perform better when given more power. I always recommend getting a receiver with preamp outputs so that you can purchase separate amplification later on down the line.

200wpc will drive just about any speaker to its full potential. You will get better dynamics, clarity, voices, bass with more power & will get it a lower volume as well.

mmadden28

xandra wrote: »

You can always bi-amp assuming you're willing to lose the backs....

Not sure how this is done, but lets say I'm running 5.1 and the SR805 is 7.1, which backs would I lose if I bi-amped the fronts? All 4 or just 2? I'd be willing to sacrifice the 2 if that is all it takes and later pursue the preamp/amp route.
I don't plan on running 7.1 until I get more surround speakers (duh) and that there's a better reason for me to do it (native 7.1 sources as opposed to simulated from a 5.1 source).

-Madden

mmadden28

Mikedabike wrote: »

... As far the 805 it does allright in 2 channel but in surround mode I have to really crank it up to get a decent volume. As I push the volume louder they really start to sing....

That's the main reason I am upgrading my receiver now-I want to avoid having to crank it up to get good sound. Of course I have always noticed that the volume is significantly lower in surround vs 2 channel, but I always just thought that was just the way the reciever was 'spreading' the sounds out or how the source was encoded.:eek: Bi-amping or external amping is looking (sounding?) more and more like the way I may need to go.

-Madden

mmadden28

xandra wrote: »

...In speaking with an Onkyo tech, power handling on 805 and up is supposed to be significantly better - particularly in regard to handling the fronts, so if he's correct it's likely you'll be just fine...

The SR705 is rated at 100 wpc and the SR805 is 130 wpc. Is that a significant difference or not really?

cfrizz wrote: »

...All speakers perform better when given more power...

So with that in mind and the specs of the RTi12s being an efficiency of 90dB and a Polk recommended range of 50-500 wpc (is that even possible?) am I pushing it getting the SR805 with 130 wpc?

mmadden28

cfrizz wrote: »

...200wpc will drive just about any speaker to its full potential. You will get better dynamics, clarity, voices, bass with more power & will get it a lower volume as well.

Sorry for all these separate replies...Just learned that I can multi-quote...

I think I understand the general concept here, but still lost in the details. If I have a 100 wpc reciever and I have to crank it up to get good quality, etc., and I replace that with a 200 wpc setup; If I have the volume at half would that be equivalent to 100 watts? If so would it sound the same as the 100 wpc setup cranked? Better?
In otherwords is a watt a watt? Or is the extra power used in a different way other than just for volume?

Thanks

PolkWannabie

It's about headroom ...

mmadden28

cfrizz wrote: »

It is NOT timbre matched to the RTI series & is 4ohm sensitive which requires more power than your receiver can give it to operate to its full potential........200wpc will drive just about any speaker to its full potential....

I wonder, if I put aside the potential timbre issue (apparently subjective?) for a moment and look at the power issue...First note-I know 1% about bi-amping.
Lets say I will run my setup as 5.1 or 6.1. Is it then feasable to take the available channel (or two, assuming I don't use them for the mains) and bi-amp the LSiC, would I then have the full potential for decent quality from the center?

Do two 130 watt channels sum to 260 wpc when bi-amping? Or is it calulated differently? If it would provide 230 wpc and 200 watts would drive just about anything... Am I reading into this right or is it a tad bit more complicated than that.

Thanks

rainman31

CSI 5 OR CSIA 6 are your best choices.

cfrizz

Think of it this way Madden, The 130wpc receiver has to divide that 130wpc between 5-7 channels so you do the math & see how much power the speakers are actually getting.

Now on the other hand the only thing an amplifier has to do is power speakers, it doesn't have to do any processing or anything else just deliver all the power speakers need at the time they need it.

Therefore, the amp has alot more headroom to give the speakers when there is a loud passage of music or action in movies.

Cranking a receiver up past the halfway point puts it at risk for shutting down or possibly blowing a tweeter in your speakers.

Now to deal with the biamping of an LSIC with your receiver. That is even more of a NO NO! All you are doing is asking the receiver to give even MORE power that is doesn't have from the one source of amplification that the receiver has. You will probably blow your LSIC faster than ever.

There is a ton of threads on here about LSI's & amplification, as well as the benefits of separate amplification. Just do a search for them.

cfrizz

Here are a couple of explanations that might help you to understand this stuff better. Someone else posted them on here & I kept them because they were so well written I even understood them!

Damping Factor

Quote:
A high damping factor indicates that an amplifier will have greater control over the movement of the speaker cone, particularly in the bass region near the resonant frequency of the driver's mechanical resonance.

This should give an amp the ability to stop the woofer when the music stops. If the amp does not have as good a damping factor - you get descriptions of "sloppy bass" and "overhang" where a drum beat sounds more like a warble or like it has an echo rather than a sudden attack of sound and then it is over.

Current can be a little harder to explain as more things come into play.

Quote:
A neat analogy to help understand these terms is a system of plumbing pipes. The voltage is equivalent to the water pressure, the current is equivalent to the flow rate, and the resistance is like the pipe size.

Let's say you increase the diameter of the hose and all of the fittings to the tank. You probably guessed that this makes more water come out of the hose. This is like decreasing the resistance in an electrical system, which increases the current flow.

What this means to you is your speaker is expecting a certain flow rate of power to work correctly. The impedance of your speaker changes with each frequency that is played. It is like having a variable size pipe leading to your speaker and your amp has to change water pressure with each sound that is played to keep the flow rate the same all the time.

A lot of things come into play to make this happen, but a good amplifier can change as needed at any ohm (pipe diameter) rating that comes along. If the pipe gets too large (ohm rating of the speaker drops too much), or the demanded flow rate gets too large (turn the volume up too high) the amp (pump) runs full bore trying to keep the rate of water flow the same, but it cant keep up. The amp overheats and goes into thermal protect mode.

If you are playing your amp too loud (flow rate demanded gets too high) - it can happen even with a smaller pipe (higher ohm speaker). If the pipe gets large enough (ohm rating is low enough) , it can happen even at low volumes.

Better explanation or no? Anyway that is kind of what happens. I am sure any engineers we have on the board will correct any mistakes I made with the flow example.

These are just a few examples of why a separate amplifier can sound better than one built into an AVR even if the wattage is the same and they are played at the same (normal) volume. If one amp can control the speakers and adjust to the music (volume and sound changes) better than another, why would you assume them to sound the same just because the wattage is the same?


Will My High-Powered Amp Blow My Speakers

From your friends at about.com

Quote:
Q. Will My High-Powered Amp Blow My Speakers
From Apply Now,
Your Guide to Stereos.

A. Many people wonder if an amplifier can blow their speakers when delivering full power to the speakers. The short answer is "No." The long answer is "well, if your amplifier is high-quality, you are OK." With power-handling, a higher rating is like almost everything else: more is always better. A speaker might have a minimum requirement for power handling, based on its sensitivity and performance, but will most likely have a maximum allowable amount.

A speaker with a 100 watt power handling rating can be safely operated when connected to a 500 watt amplifier. The speaker is not going to explode or anything like that. The truth is that high amplifier power almost never destroys a speaker. In most cases, it is a lack of amplifier power that causes damage. The key is to use your speakers with an amplifier that produces sufficient output to drive the speakers to realistic sound volumes without distortion, or "clipping."

Clipping occurs when the amp is asked to deliver more current to a speaker than the amp is really capable of doing. When an amplifier clips, it literally cuts off (or ... clips) the tops and bottoms of the musical waveforms that its trying to reproduce. This phenomenon introduces a huge amount of distortion into the output signal, and it is that distortion that kills speakers. The maximum power-handling amount stated on a speaker basically assumes that the amplifier is going to "clip" or start to produce distortion at its maximum output. So, if you use a low-quality amplifier, it will start to run out of gas at its max output, and might do damage to your speakers.

A high-quality amp usually produces ample power without clipping and thus it avoids the introduction of speaker-killing distortion.

J_Kennedy

cfrizz wrote: »

Think of it this way Madden, The 130wpc receiver has to divide that 130wpc between 5-7 channels so you do the math & see how much power the speakers are actually getting.

Actually, speaking strictly about the Onkyo 805 (although standard) it's 130 watts per channel, X's 7 channels for the 805. Each channel is 130 watts peak.

mmadden28 wrote: »

CSi5 vs. CSi A6
From what I can gather the CSI A6 seems to be the new equivalent of the older CSi5. Is that correct? If so, is there much of a difference in sound quality?

CSi Vs. LSi
Would I be better off spending a bit more and getting an LSiC center?
I have a few concerns with the LSiC:
Its rated 4 ohms compared to the 8 ohms on all my other speakers-but I heard (not confirmed) that the Onkyo can drive 4 and/or 8-so not sure if that woudl be an issue.
Would the LSiC blend/match well (timber )with the RTi12s?

And finally would the Onkyo drive my setup fine?

Thanks

I can't compare the CSi5 to the A6 but I have an A6 and it's great!! I got lucky however, and paid <$200 for one. If you can get a CSi5, which seems almost impossible to find lately, for less than $250 it's probably worth taking. I don't think there's a huge difference in the 2.

As said the LSiC's are a different family of speaker and NOT timbre matched to the RTi family. As for ohm settings, the 805 lets you set 4 or 6 ohm, not a combination of the 2. (for a < 4 Ohm speaker you choose 6ohms) I would not do LSiC unless you go that family of speaker all around.

Mikedabike wrote: »

I have the RTi 12's, CSi A6, with RTi 4's for surround. I also have the Onkyo 805. The A6 is a good match if you cant find the 5. As far the 805 it does allright in 2 channel but in surround mode I have to really crank it up to get a decent volume. As I push the volume louder they really start to sing. When the budget allows I am going to amp them seperately to try to get some of the dynamics I hear with the Onkyo at high volume at a lower level.

I found the same thing form different inputs/sources. some are higher, some are lower. You can set Intellivolume with the 805 though. That is, set volume higher or lower for different inputs/sources so they are more closely matched. I've bumber up my DVD input by 10db so now the TV and DVD are more closely matched in volume and I'm not cranking the volume for DVD's up to 75 to hear, then down to 35 for TV (little exaggeration )

I'm no audiophile and this is my first HT and I found the 805 to be really easy to set up, and I'm finding, it's even more flexible and tweakable to make it even better. What's the best is the EZSync. My Panasonic Plasma and the Obkyo are like one unit! It's cool. Turn the TV on or off, the 805 turns on or off with it. Switch source on the TV, the 805 follows.

cfrizz

OK JK!

Sound & Vision reviewed the Onkyo 804 last year. It is 105wpc it broke down to this.

1 channel = 151w, 2 channels = 133w 7 channels = 56w

Now if we just do 2 channel for everything than you're all set. But most of us get receivers to watch movies in surround sound. 56wpc is NOTHING & gets worse when you throw in an explosion or 2.

Sorry but I'll take a nice big 5-7 channel amp that will get me a lot closer to the wattage that is says it is putting out, and know that my speakers are getting all the power they need when they need it to operate to their full potential. And my ears benefit from hearing what that full potential sounds like!:)

J_Kennedy wrote: »

Actually, speaking strictly about the Onkyo 805 (although standard) it's 130 watts per channel, X's 7 channels for the 805. Each channel is 130 watts peak.

J_Kennedy

I certainly can't address what a 3rd party tested or measured on another Onkyo receiver, I can only speak to what Onkyo advertises as the specs of the 805. Maybe it's not what they say it is, but if it weren't, I think their Lawyers would be "concerned". Maybe it's a difference in the method of testing? Who knows.

Mine could be 12 watts; so be it. It sounds good. LOL

PolkWannabie

Actually their lawyers won't be concerned at all as there are no standards in this area ...

The reality is most if not all receiver manufacturers cheat when it comes to specs ... I'd believe independant lab testing over some manufacturers claims any day ...

As far as sounding good is concerned that may well be the case until some day when it's being pushed a little too hard for some passage and clipping, distortion and damage begin ...

J_Kennedy

Ok, let me start over. The thread, "Have RTi12s -Best center? CSi5, CSiA6 or LSiC??"

Ignore everything else and see my comments on the speakers, the speakers only.

None of this is helping the guy since none of us have a lab to test out a manufactures claim. Or do we?

Airplay355

I doubt you'd be able to hear a difference between an A6 and a Csi5, especially if you are using a receiver to power everything.

You'd probably be best off with getting whichever one is cheaper and looks nicest in your system.

Don't get the LsiC, it's a completely different tweeter, completely different sound, and it's 4 ohm so it's going to stress your poor receiver out even more then those big **** rti12's are doing.

PolkWannabie

That's what CFrizz was referring to ... Don't get me wrong, receivers do have their place and I do use them ... Just understand that it's highly unlikely that most will compete favorably with a preamp / amp set configuration ...

As to your question ... Not LSiC ... As for the other two ... Pick one ...

cfrizz

Thanks Rick!:D

mmadden28

Thanks everybody for all the great info and insight. I learned a lot just in this thread.

Here is what I think I am going to do:
Pick up a new CSi5 or spend about $50 more and get the CSiA6. If both are essentially the same, I might get the CSiA6 just for the fact that it has the cherry on the front face where the CSi5 is silver on the front. Just nicer aesthetics (assuming I'll be allowed to leave the grill off.)

I actually have a CSi5 now-picked it up at Tweeter, clearance floor model for $275 (no tax)-but I didn't inspect it first-its all dinged up-I am usually weary about buying used unless I can be sure its in great condition, but--as mentioned-these are hard to find. The sales rep showed me the store inventories-it appeared that only a dozen or two stores each only had one and it was likely the floor model. I doubt the dings are affecting sound - it looks solid-just appearance and I have to keep the wife pleased with good looking stuff if I am adding any "furniture" to the family room. So I could either ask tweeter for some scratch and dent discounts or return (30 day return) and buy a new one for $250 (CSiA6 for $300) + S/H The new CSi5 would end costing about $10 more but it would be new in factory sealed box.

I'll stay away from the LSi series unless I decide to go all LSi, The consensus is pretty strong in that area. I just wanted to be sure since the LSi was only another $75 above the CSiA6.

So far the Onkyo SR805 still seems like a winner for about $750. I still have to do some more research to be sure, but since its capable (for now) as far as wattage, it supports a form of bi-amping with the unused (in my case-at least for now) rear channels, and seems to be fairly configurable as well as it seems to be a popular choice among users here. The SR805 has support for the latest HDMI specs and support for some if not all of the latest surround decoding formats and will be a considerable leap forward from my current Sony 6.1 setup.
I think I'll start out in a 5.1 config, and use the extra rears to bi-amp the RTi12s.
And as mentioned before, it has preamp outputs so I'll be able to re-utilize my investment as a preamp with an external more capable amp when I am ready to go that path-even if its sooner rather than later.

Its obvious to me that I still have a lot to learn, but I am a fast learner-sometimes anyway.

cfrizz

Well learned & digested Madden! Keep us posted as you go along.

toddco

Ok so you know Csi5 or Csia6 good. I have the CSi5 and was using my sonyES receiver to power it 100w per CH. Should be good right? WRONG!!!! :eek::eek:I powered it with on older used M200 outlaw AMP and my Jaw HIT THE FLOOR. I asked my kid does it sound diffrent he said "sound's like you added anuther speaker". I cant beleive what this speaker can do.So keep this in mind, you will not know what you have untill you power with SEP.AMPS:D:D

mmadden28

Now that's incentive! Good to know I should be able to expect more.

It all seems to come down to the right combination of equipment for a particular use and subjective expectation (well, ok, money and wife's approvals as well:cool:)

toddco

I just spent all weakend saying DAMM & G#D DAMM & Jesus, Dam, Jeess after8 months of using my SONY ES, O how little we know.:cool:

mmadden28

Update:
I decided to hop on the separates/amp bandwagon now (even before i have a reciever/preamp!) and take a chance with the new Emotiva XPA-5. I realize it might be a too good to be true thing-but you never know. For $860 shipped I get a new 5x200 watts per channel (all driven into 8 ohms) with the full 5 year transferrable warranty. How bad could it be? Especially since I have no experience to comapre it to anything-I guess a long as it does the jaw-dropping job right? Of course I will certainly initially set everythign up with just the AVR to get a baseline, then connect the amp and see what-if any difference I hear. I will be sure to report back my observations to the forums.
Not sure yet how I'll be utilizing it yet though-perhaps drive the mains and center and perhaps the surrounds through the XPA-5, and if I use the rear channels (6&7), use the Receiver's amps. I am not sure about all of my connection options yet-I still have to learn a bit more-such as would I be able to mix it up. Such as Bi-amp the fronts and still somehow use the XPA-5?? Maybe I'll only Bi-Wire--I don't know-I'll figure that out later-Getting a reciever is going to the top priority right now as my current reciever does not have any pre-outs-So when my XPA-5 arrives on Monday-I'll only be able to look at it and figure out where I'll place the beast. Oh and I think I have to run a new dedicated circuit for it-something tells me its going to need it.

As for the reciever, I've been researching and researching. Getting there-still haven't decided on a reciever. I keep getting caught up on specs and features I probably really don't need. Strongest choice so far is the Onkyo SR805, second the Denon 3808, although not sure I want to spend a few hundred more on the Denon for negligble return. Only major difference I see between the two is that the Onkyo is THX Ultra2 Certified, whereas the Denon is not. Not sure if that will make a difference (esp with an ext amp). I still have to look into the H/K, Yamaha, Sony and Pioneer equivalents to see if there worth a look. Although I am still leaning heavily on the Onkyo.
Of course maybe the fact that I now have an amp changes my choices or specs of the reciever/preamp I should be looking for?? (I am putting a soft limit of $1000 on my reciever purchase-but I also want to future proof - at least for the near term-I don't want to settle for clearance/old hat stuff unless its an incredible bang for the buck. Two months ago I started this endeavor of simply upgrading my center channel with a budget of just $500-FYI, my setup before getting the Polks was a Sony 120 wpc/6.1 avr with speakers and sub for about $700 complete (Sony HT-6800DP) . -I've been corrupted and sucked in!! Oh if the wife ever knew how much I spent so far...;) ACtually I am not sure I klnow how much I've spent-Not sure I want to know until its all done.

Although I haven't discussed it at all-just to give a good overall picture-I am still using my old Sony 120watt powered subwoofer that seems capable (rattled the grills right off of some Klipshes I was trying). I still have an unopened Klipsch Synergy Sub12-but I haven't determined if I am going to return it and get a better one or if I'll be happy with it-for now I'll assume I am keeping it-unless I get an overwhelming response to change it. I have been eyeing the Polk DSWPro500/600

I've since bought some surround speakers as well as some in-walls. A pair of FXi3 and a pair of TC615i. I didn't want behemoth's, but also didn't want to shortchange myself either. I really only got the FXi3 for my surrounds for a 5.1 setup, and the In-Walls to use in the Kitchen in a different zone or something. But placement is now an issue. I have a very poor room for Home Theater. For this though, I will starting a new thread.

Summary of my soon to be equipment line-up:
2 - RTi12 (Cherry) Left and Right
1 - CSI5 Center (soon will be swapped for a CSiA6)
2 - FXi3 (surrounds or backs--still tbd)
2 - TC615i in-walls ((surrounds or backs if at all?--still tbd)
1 - Klipsch Synergy Sub12 (650watt 12" downfiring) (still tbd)
1 - Emotiva XPA-5 - 200watts x 5
1 - Onkyo SR805 (still tbd)