Sub for 2 channel listening.
pearsall001
Posts: 5,068
Yeah, I'm still farting around with the idea of adding a sub to compliment my 2 channel system. Even though my AAD monitors put out tremendous bass, there is always room for improvement. From what I've been reading pretty much all speakers can benefit from a "quality" sub. Even Wilson Watt Puppy's are know to be run with a sub.
I've looked at ML Depth, & Totem Thunder as my first choices. Now I've come across the Velodyne DD series, in particular the DD-10 & the DD-12. What I really like about them is the on board room correction system that makes system integration that much easier. Also they receive stellar reviews. That's the one thing that scares me about adding a sub is getting it to blend in. That's something I have no experience with. Th DD series are the only one's with such sophisticated on board room correction. Any other recommendations or opinions.
I've looked at ML Depth, & Totem Thunder as my first choices. Now I've come across the Velodyne DD series, in particular the DD-10 & the DD-12. What I really like about them is the on board room correction system that makes system integration that much easier. Also they receive stellar reviews. That's the one thing that scares me about adding a sub is getting it to blend in. That's something I have no experience with. Th DD series are the only one's with such sophisticated on board room correction. Any other recommendations or opinions.
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
Post edited by pearsall001 on
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I have a Elemental Designs A5-300. After playing with placement, gain, phase, and delay(in my preamp), I was able to integrate it pretty well. It adds some nice bottom end kick without being boomy. It blends well with my mains, I'm unable to tell where the extra bass is coming from in my room. This is probably also due to my preamp having a double bass mode, allowing the mains to run full range along with a sub."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Get an SVS ultra plus sub. They are very musical, and gives you rock solid bass.
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Room correction for 2-channel. Yeah, that's the ticket. For a man of such high audio standards, you'll need stereo subs.HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
Since his mains put out a decent amount of bass already, he may be able to get away with a single sub. For small speakers, I wouldn't attempt a single sub."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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I use a Paradigm Reference Servo 15 with the 1.2TL's. I'm very happy with that.:D:D
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Since his mains put out a decent amount of bass already, he may be able to get away with a single sub. For small speakers, I wouldn't attempt a single sub.
Well actually they are pretty small (13x13x7) yet pretty heavy (50lb ea) & they do dig down deep to 25Hz in the bass department. Even at that I'm still intrigued with adding a "quality" sub. From my reading it sounds like a good sub wiil add to the soundstage, imaging, free up the 2 channel amp & let the speakers concentrate on the mids & highs without having to plumment down too deep, & just give you more of a "you are there" experience. Emphasis is on "quality" sub. I'm still doing my homework & I surely don't want to rush into anything."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Room correction for 2-channel. Yeah, that's the ticket. For a man of such high audio standards, you'll need stereo subs.
You're killing me Early!!! I'd like to start with one good "quality" sub & see how I like it. How's about the REL R-Series?"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Not as well known as the big names but ACI,s sealed box designs are highly rated as music subs.They look purdy to.http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/titanxl/titanxl.htmTesting
Testing
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Not as well known as the big names but ACI,s sealed box designs are highly rated as music subs.They look purdy to.http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/titanxl/titanxl.htm
Hey thanks, I've been looking at them for some time now. I did contact them for some hookup info. They told me that since I'm using balanced XLR cables between my amp & preamp and the way that their subs are hooked up that I couldn't do it. They run directly off the amp using RCA cables. They said that maybe down the road they'll have a balanced hookup."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
sent you a pmHome Theater sony 52 inch lcd,Cinenova grande 7 channel, polk RTI8,CSI5,FXI5,onkyo 805
2 Channel rig Sunfire grand cinema 5ch,sunfire TGA III,Rotel 1072,polk RTI12,Monster hts 5100 -
If the funds provide, I would look at REL for music. Nice smooth integration.Michael
In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
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With your speakers I second the recommendation on REL. You should also look at some of the small sealed subs Polk has coming out. They might surprise you.DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
If you are still interested in pursuing the addition of a sub to your system, you might want to start to familiarize yourself with the following:
Active Crossover
I am not sure how you are planning on integrating the sub in your system, but I would suggest using a crossover point one octave above the lower -3dB frequncy of the monitor and one octave below the upper -3dB frequency of the sub. This region is ideal as the speakers do not introduce any frequency roll-off characteristics into the crossover region.
Bottom filling with a sub without a crossover will use the monitor low frequency roll-off characteristics for the crossover point and may or may not produce good results.
In your instance, I would look for a crossover which has XLR inputs/outputs. I believe NHT makes some affordable units; X-1 and X-2. Ideally, you may want to consider the Bryston active crossover. There are also several pro models; DBX comes to mind as I use one of these units.
Based on your speakers measured response, a 100Hz crossover may be ideal as this would reduce the monitors uneven performance characteristics starting around 70Hz .
SPL meter
Even if you purchase a unit with automatic equalization, it still might be a good idea to be familiar with manually measuring your speakers frequency response. You would need a SPL meter, test tones and any relevant SPL meter frequency correction factors. There is lots of information available on this and others sites.
Parametric EQ
If you dont get a unit with active equalization, I highly recommend getting a sub or active crossover with at least one PEQ channel. This will help to reduce any measured room mode when setting up the sub.
Phase
I tried various methods of adjusting the phase between my monitors and subs. These got me into the ballpark, but I continued to notice there was something still wrong with the overall sonic characteristics.
I use two subs, each located directly behind my monitors. While adjusting the phase one day, I had my ear inline with the front of the monitor. With my ear in this position, I could clearly hear when the monitor and sub were in correct phase. The crossover frequency became a steady tone. When they were out of phase, you could hear the interference pattern on the tone between the two speakers.
I would insist on having a continuous phase adjustment somewhere in the chain when using a sub. If your sub is located a position where you can not adjust the phase while having your ear inline with the monitor front, have some else adjust the phase for you while you listen.
Craigsub rankings
The AVS Forum user Craigsub has evaluated several subs. If you have not reviewed this list, have a look to see what he has reviewed. Note the DD18 scored lower than some of the more recently introduced subs. Is this due to sonic characteristics or variations of scoring over time??
Dont be afraid to learn to configure a sub within your system. It will take some experimentation and you may not be able to integrate your sub to your satisfaction for several months, but in the long run, the benefits will significantly outweigh the short term pain.
I believe you have several audio enabled acquaintances. Amongst the group, you should be able to properly integrate the sub into your system.
If I were to do this again at this time, I would be looking at the Fathom F113s on Agon or a new SVS PB13-Ultra (but in my case due to space constraints, two of the new PC-Ultras). With the extra I saved getting the PB13, I would look for a used Bryston active crossover and the necessary XLR ICs.
Attached are some documents explaining the benefits of having a monitor/sub configuration.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
For a man of such high audio standards, you'll need stereo subs.
+1 on this. I'm not much for subs with 2ch but if you are going to do it, do it in stereo. I tried one sub for awhile and what it tends to do is to pull the channels together somewhat unless you have it set to very minimal output. Most people wouldn't notice it I guess but it bugged me a bit. I have stereo now and wouldn't consider trying it in mono again.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...
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Excellent write up jm1!! Also thanks for the links...that was some good reading. He really answered a lot of questions that I had. Now I realize the role a good sub plays regardless of what speakers you're running."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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pearsall001 wrote: »Excellent write up jm1!! Also thanks for the links...that was some good reading. He really answered a lot of questions that I had. Now I realize the role a good sub plays regardless of what speakers you're running.
Even before reading this and other papers I have come across during my reading travels, I had determined I was going to use high quality monitors with subs. I currently use the Dynaudio Confidence C1 monitors, two of the original SVS PC-Ultra subs and the dbx active crossover. Can't say that I will be making any moves with these and the Simaudio preamp and amp components I have.
If you have any questions I or other could answer, please post them so we can help.
I forgot to mention that the placement of your sub should be between your monitors. I have located each of my subs along the front wall behind the monitors at the room width modes.
To calculate room modes, you can download an Room Mode Calculator from the Harmon International site. Click on 'White Papers', then 'Calculators' and select 'Room Mode Calculator' to download an XLS spreadsheet. It has a graphic component that I find useful.
The Harmon site also has a white paper on the number and placement of subs in a room. It can be found by clicking the 'White Papers' link and is titled "Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations" I have linked this document to posts in the past so you may have read it at some point. You may also want to read some of the other white papers while there.
JM
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
The floor space between my monitors is occupied by my amp. I do have a few other locations I can place a sub to hear where it performs best. I'm pretty much at a disadvantage in that the sub can't be over 16.5" tall. That rules out quite a few I've looked at.
I'm checking out the Velodyne DD Series, in particular the DD-10 & the DD-12. They both would be a perfect fit & they both get nothing but great reviews. Velo really hit a home run with the DD series."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
pearsall001 wrote: »The floor space between my monitors is occupied by my amp. I do have a few other locations I can place a sub to hear where it performs best. I'm pretty much at a disadvantage in that the sub can't be over 16.5" tall. That rules out quite a few I've looked at./QUOTE]
Maybe a picture would be worth more than several thousand words.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident.
