Maybe I don't like modern hifi...

mulveling

Just came home with a so-ugly-they're-beautiful pair of Heathkit W4 monoblocks! IIRC they're 60's vintage 20 Watts/ch tube rectified push-pull using 6sn7 & 5881 tubes. I've owned some really expensive amps in my day: Sunfire Sig II, Parasound JC-1, VAC Auricle, etc. This is craziness - I might prefer these Heathkits I picked up for $450, revamped by the local vintage speaker/amp guru. My speakers are the Tannoy Dimension TD10.

All these other amps I've owned try to sound clean and uniform from top to bottom. Somehow I think they miss the boat. The Heathkits sacrifice some of the low-end wallop, but the mids are just absolutely liquid and holographic. Pure, gorgeous music in the midrange. Maybe it's also a bit of synergy - Tannoys are all about the midrange, too.

So far I've only listened with SACD through my Denon 3910 and Sugden Headmaster as preamp. In past systems I've much preferred vinyl via my SOTA (also a vintage piece, though only 1980s) over the Denon, and my Eddie Current Zana Deux or Singepower SDS tube preamps over the Sugden, so I think it could get even better...we'll see. Still, I'm a happy camper for $450 I think I'll probably end up selling the expensive VACs (a set just sold on a-gon for $2700).

BTW, the 20 Watts is sounding pretty powerful so far

Edit: Pics added down at post #15

Early B.

Very nice. Pics, please.

Face

mulveling wrote: »

BTW, the 20 Watts is sounding pretty powerful so far

That's the beauty of efficient speakers. Too bad you're not local, I'd love to hear your setup.

lakesailor

Good sound never ages. You have a nice system there and it is great to hear that you are enjoying it. Pics would be cool as well

treitz3

2-channel and synergy. Enjoy.

ben62670

I love some of the older stuff. My Adcom GFA-585 just sounds so nice for a solid state. My GFA-5800 hits harder, but isn't as smooth on the top. I love paper cone woofers too. I think some of the newer silk domes are nice, but then again you have ribbons like Carver, and Infinity that shimmer.

furball

Tube amplification produces a lot of distortion. Well designed solid state amplification, on the other hand gives you very linear response with minimal distortion.

There have been studies done that show that humans perceive perfectly linear response as a bit bright, shrill sounding, dry. So viewed in this light, to some people, the distortion produced by tube amplification is actually perceived as pleasant, thus you have people describe tube amplification as warm, rich, etc.

Anyways, just some thoughts.

Dennis Gardner

furball wrote: »

Tube amplification produces a lot of distortion. Well designed solid state amplification, on the other hand gives you very linear response with minimal distortion.

There have been studies done that show that humans perceive perfectly linear response as a bit bright, shrill sounding, dry. So viewed in this light, to some people, the distortion produced by tube amplification is actually perceived as pleasant, thus you have people describe tube amplification as warm, rich, etc.

Anyways, just some thoughts.

Wow who knew?.................:rolleyes:

sucks2beme

furball wrote: »

Tube amplification produces a lot of distortion. Well designed solid state amplification, on the other hand gives you very linear response with minimal distortion.

There have been studies done that show that humans perceive perfectly linear response as a bit bright, shrill sounding, dry. So viewed in this light, to some people, the distortion produced by tube amplification is actually perceived as pleasant, thus you have people describe tube amplification as warm, rich, etc.

Anyways, just some thoughts.

Ever listen at an Audio Research?
Ever listen to any quality set up?

treitz3

Ever make a comment about something not read on the internet?

Actual experience, maybe?

TroyD

I have a pair of Heath W5M's rebuilt COMPLETELY by Gary Dodd and Charlie Cocci (did I mention that I owe Russman my first born male child for pulling that one off?)...everything new except the iron and chasis. I wouldn't part with these for ANYTHING.

Studies also show that those that don't know, don't know.

BDT

tonyb

A well built piece of gear is a well built piece of gear regardless if it's 30 yrs old or built yesterday.Glad you like it.Throw out some pics when you can.

george daniel

tonyb wrote: »

A well built piece of gear is a well built piece of gear regardless if it's 30 yrs old or built yesterday.Glad you like it.Throw out some pics when you can.

good point,, some of us have speakers that old.

mulveling

Still going strong! 20 Watts banging out a surprising quality and quantity of sound Here's the pics. Yes, the cables are a mess Gear is in the living room w/ TV since I am in 2ch/HT limbo...again. The turntable and high end headphone gear is in my home office. I guess now I could sell my expensive amps, buy a plasma, and get that CRT behemoth out of the way of my speakers.

mulveling

BTW that preamp is an Eddie Current Zana Deaux Line Driver & Headphone amp...an exquisitely neutral & detailed tube component. Like the Heathkits, it's point-to-point wired and tube rectified. Unlike the Heathkits, it's a recent build. Funny how the aesthetics of these components separated by 40+ years kinda matches up...even more if I take off that glossy black faceplate and put back the stock gray one

Now I NEED to get some vinyl spinning in here, using the stock Denon 3910 w/ P2P all-tube gear is almost sacrilege ...

tonyb

Cool pics.....polish those babies up a bit.Curious...do you find having the slabs under the speakers help at all? I have carpet over concrete slab but just spiked thru the carpet but always hard to tell if I'm getting full contact with the concrete.

wizzy

Love the tiles under the speakers, good touch

mulveling

tonyb wrote: »

Cool pics.....polish those babies up a bit.Curious...do you find having the slabs under the speakers help at all? I have carpet over concrete slab but just spiked thru the carpet but always hard to tell if I'm getting full contact with the concrete.

I did quite a bit of back-and-forth comparison listening when I had the Legacy's (a painful 130lbs x2 xN undertaking). I'm fairly sure it improved imaging, coherence, weight, and bass slam. I suspect the issue is the flimsy suspended wood floor in my current apt. I never had to mess with slabs to get good sound back when I had another apt that was identical in every way - except the floor was carpet over concrete slab.

The slab really doesn't improve stability because they spread the weight out too much over thick padded carpet. However, I think the key is that in this case, I *don't* want to couple the speakers to the floor, because the floor is not acoustically inert. By using the tiles you are coupling them to a (hopefully) more inert slab, which is decoupled from the floor via the carpet & pad. Now if I had a concrete slab under there, I'd probably find the sharpest spikes available to dig down to that rock. I also used Auralex Grammas for a while before I got these pretty granite slabs; if anything they work even better, but they're kinda unsightly.

mulveling

I'm now officially blown away by these little amps. Still can't believe what 20 vintage watts can do. Even tried a little 2ch HT, pushed it moderately loud; no distortion or breakup observed yet; sound purity & imaging (for 2ch) was sublime.

So now I've got the vintage bug. Just picked up a vintage McIntosh SS (2nd generation SS) amp on the way from agon - the MC2100, at 100 Watts/ch. I'm interested to see what good vintage SS sound like; I'm assuming the 2100 is good. It does use the trademark autoformer outputs, which is a very interesting approach to SS.

The $5.2K MSRP VACs will definitely be going up for sale on agon once I get around to it

Face

They have the traditional Mac sound, but may lack a little bass. But if you're happy with the bass from your vintage tube amps, you'll probably be fine.

mulveling

Face wrote: »

They have the traditional Mac sound, but may lack a little bass. But if you're happy with the bass from your vintage tube amps, you'll probably be fine.

That sounds perfect for me. After I hit the lottery, then I'll search for an amp that gets the midrange right AND has world-beating bass

Yashu

There have been studies done that show that humans perceive perfectly linear response as a bit bright, shrill sounding, dry

This is how I hear. I am extremely sensitive to HF, so it is hard to find synergy, and even hard to find recordings that sound good. I have been getting more and more interested in tubes and vinyl, however, vinyl by itself is a great improvement. I have heard some great SS amps though. I have noticed that they just don't build 'em like they used to. It takes more money to buy the quality that used to be considered common.

Face

How about a low light or lights off pic with only the tubes glowing?

bikerboy

I am glad to see someone else who found that modern gear can be too accurate or linear or sterile. I havent owned anything like what you have but many systems I have heard may be accurate but lifeless. Like you the JoLida tube amp I got from Doro changed my system completely. I think it is because our hearing isnt linear and we think stereo gear needs to be accurate or linear and that doesnt match our ears frequency response. The NOS dac is in the same school also. I think this drive for accuracy has forgotten some basic ideas about how our ears hear sounds. Beautiful amps and what a great deal at $450.

madmax

Nice pics! How did you make the tubes glow? Every time I take a pic of tubes they look like they are turned off.
madmax

mulveling

madmax wrote: »

Nice pics! How did you make the tubes glow? Every time I take a pic of tubes they look like they are turned off.
madmax

Thanks! Tubes only look bright in photos when the ambient light level is low enough, and you don't use flash. Flash will destroy any possibility of seeing the glow. You can see, the tubes glow best in that 2nd pic which was a backlit (lower light) situation. I was using natural light from the windows on a sunny day, but with the blinds were closed for this reason. You're going to end up with very long (up to several seconds) exposure times in these cases, so a tripod is a must. I also use 2-second timer mode to avoid camera shake from pressing the shutter button. Also, some tubes are just brighter than others. In this case the rectifier tubes are brightest.

As Face mentioned, taking pics of tubes in a dark room can create some very striking photos

mulveling

bikerboy wrote: »

I am glad to see someone else who found that modern gear can be too accurate or linear or sterile. I havent owned anything like what you have but many systems I have heard may be accurate but lifeless. Like you the JoLida tube amp I got from Doro changed my system completely. I think it is because our hearing isnt linear and we think stereo gear needs to be accurate or linear and that doesnt match our ears frequency response. The NOS dac is in the same school also. I think this drive for accuracy has forgotten some basic ideas about how our ears hear sounds. Beautiful amps and what a great deal at $450.

Agreed. My mind was (and still is to some degree) conditioned go be impressed by boutique components (caps resistors, etc), shiny chassis, nuclear power plant-like feats of engineering, and large price tags. Very eye-opening to hear what a very simple but well executed piece of vintage kit can do for so little cash outlay. I'm not yet sure if this is a case of simpler is better (simple circuit & P2P wiring), a case of vintage is better, a case of one kind of harmonic distortion profile being pleasing to the ear, a case of synergy, or a case of designing to serve the music/midrange rather than designing for absolute resolution, extension, power ratings, & specs. Maybe part of all of these? Absolutely, the expensive amps I've owned were technical marvels, but now I can do without them and their marvelous price tags

Certainly, these little Heathkits seem to match the personality of Tannoys to a T...I like to approach system synergy by matching up stuff with similar strengths rather than trying to balance out weaknesses. I chose Tannoys because to my ears they're supremely musical and avoid any trace of analytical sound.

analog97

Studies also show that those that don't know, don't know.

BDT

Now that's funny!!!

Face

analog97 wrote: »

Now that's funny!!!

I missed that the first time around. I may have to use that in my sig.