Rolling speaker cable
daboyz
Posts: 5,207
I saw yesterday that someone had some speaker cable rolled up due to excess to the speaker. Can someone please explain to me what the issue is with doing that? Thanks!
Post edited by daboyz on
Comments
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You're creating a air core inductor by rolling/coiling the speaker cable. You may or may not notice the effect though. If at all possible, I would avoid coiling it."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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I was the one who had it coiled, but have fixed that now.
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You in effect,creat an antenna to pick up noise.Some do ,some don't.HT SYSTEM-
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If the speaker wire is in pairs (most is), with a positive and negative sending current in opposite directions, the magnetic fields will cancel each other out. There will be no added inductance.
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Well,now I've got two 14 foot Signals from Face that I'd love to hook up but don't need anywhere near that length until the basements finished off. So it may be a problem or it may not?
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If it's well shielded cable, it won't matter.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I'll email Frank and see what he's got to say and I'll let ya'll know.
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As William is pointing out, if we're talking about paired speaker cable(+ and - together), coiling will not do anything. Actually, it can make the wire look a little cooler.
A single conductor coiled creates an inductor which has a higher resistance than normal to high frequencies. Keep in mind all cables have an inductance and a capacitance. You are not creating an inductance that did not exist, you are increasing an existing one. Don't lose sleep over this.
And try not to coil cables. -
Also don't bunch them up (like how HTIB speaker cable comes packaged). Sharp turns in the cable are bad from what I hear.Polk Audio RTi8 Fronts
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Also don't bunch them up (like how HTIB speaker cable comes packaged). Sharp turns in the cable are bad from what I hear.
Why would sharp turns matter? -
Also don't bunch them up (like how HTIB speaker cable comes packaged). Sharp turns in the cable are bad from what I hear.Why would sharp turns matter?
That's the first time I've heard that also, I find it hard to believe."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Also don't bunch them up (like how HTIB speaker cable comes packaged). Sharp turns in the cable are bad from what I hear.
I heard this once also, but I think it was in the context of not bunching the cables to the point of creasing or crimping them. I would guess loose bunching would yield the same results (if any) as a loose coil, though. -
Bending is to be avoided for the simple reason that you can damage the cable.
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Hey ya'll. Just heard from Frank and he says it is perfectly fine to coil the extra length of cable. In fact he has some coiled in his own rig. So,there you have it.:)
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Bending is to be avoided for the simple reason that you can damage the cable.
What kind of bending are we talking about here? In order to really damage something you would basically have to fold the cable...... -
I think I opened a can of worms
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Bill Ayotte wrote: »What kind of bending are we talking about here? In order to really damage something you would basically have to fold the cable......
Folding to the point of crimping.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Folding to the point of crimping.
Exactly. If you somehow "accidentally" do that, you have issues.... -
Hey ya'll. Just heard from Frank and he says it is perfectly fine to coil the extra length of cable. In fact he has some coiled in his own rig. So,there you have it.:)
Some of us had it already.:) -
wire vs cable
the impedance of a cable = the distance between the conductors / diameter of the conductor
in the case of coax the diameter of the conducter in the middle is important if distance between is called radius... it will be apparent why.
this since we start at speed of light in vacuum and the diameters based on the time units you choose in relative to the speed of light to be put in practical units
z= 276*log10(2*s/d)
z= ohms s= distance between( instead of s for coax radius) d=conductor diameter
the 88-92 mhz antenna i worked in miles/sec and went to feet so i wont bother to do it again...
but it makes no difference if the units are mills or microns or miles at this point but they must be the same
the 276 is basicly the use of base 10 logs which were widely used in tables before calculators were under $5
also the reason for bells and decibells and Ph..
a something to do with historicelay most people had 10 fingers
babylonians had 60 fingers that why minutes seconds and 360degrees to a circle rather than 2pi radians
if you have the natural logs use 1
but anyway to find the difference between the speed of light and the time to traverse the transmission line
Lamda= 983.6*vf/f
since you can find the vF or velocity factor of commercial cable
RG6 = 75
rg8 = 66
rg58 = 66
50ohm al jacket 7/8" dia = 81
300ohm twin lead = 82
300ohm open wire = 97
the 300ohm open wire is sorta like twin lead but has styrene spacers about every foot or so usually heavier wire because transmitters can have a few watts rather than the microwatts of a reciever
antennuation losses have to do with the insulation its dielectric and the impedance
so 100' of wire at 1Mhz
300ohm open .01 db
300ohm twin lead .1 db
rg8 .157db
rg68 .3db
rg174 1.5db
for 100Khz audio divide these antennuations by 10
for 1Khz divide by 1000
so if you do stereo and have the amp 1100' from the speaker
with the 300ohm open wire the signal will arrive 3% slower than a fiber optic
which means 1.03 milliseconds rather than 1.0 milliseconds
the rg8 translates to 1.4ms
the parallel open wire is the better choice
with 1 speaker by the amp and the other 1100' away it obvious that a better choice would be to have the amp in the middle and 550' to each speaker
this way both speakers get the signal at the same time.
since a speaker cable is transmitting power the power density between the parallel wires is apt to be appromatly 1e8 times as great as the tv station or perhaps 80db ... the coax makes it a bit harder to get between the outer and inner conductor.
if you wish to see if this is a problem .. split the zip cord ad put an antenna between the conductors this brings the noise from nanovolt levels to micro volt levels...
Ill bet a penny that the binding posts on the speakers not to mention the single wires leading around to the drivers are more of a problem .
coax runs around easier less chance of the hot conductor hitting the stainless steel kitchen sink or a waterpipe, gutter,Al siding .. an even if it does the outside is usually grounded. but with audio a balanced line will avoid ground loops... which is why the millivolt magnetic phonograph pickups generally had twisted pairs with a sheild.
pa auditoriums and stuff usually use 70v or 100v because of the distance
think of these as 600ohm voice coils
big woofers in the cars sometimes have 2ohm voice coils
which means with small wire say #10 100' of that wire would be .2ohms
10 percent of that signal power would be used to heat the wire.
the pa speaker with 100' of #10 wire loses only .03%
this is the reason to put the amp near the speaker.
conductor material
Ag is better than Cu
Cu better than Au
Au better than Al
Au doesnt oxidize sulfate or nitrate
so a thin coat of of Au on a terminal and you dont have oxide to complete the connection solder is better than trying to hold two pcs of stuff together with a spring and it get more than point contact
so if you are less than 20Mhz the #10wire at the hardware store at $45 for 500 feet is as good as #10 monster wire espically if you make it into a twisted pair. solder those gold plated terminals to the ends and you can move till you find a place with the solid rock basment and a concrete ceiling for a listening room that doesnt rattle. -
Where did you get that?.... I can't confirm or deny that cause I don't understand any of it so I would have to assume it must be true cause there is no way anyone could make all that up.
Pete you do what for a living? -
Cable impedance is in fact determined by conductor geometry and the dielectric. This 'characteristic impedance' does not change with length and concerns high frequencies, generally 20 MHz and up.
Unfortunately, this has little to do with coiling your cables. The reasoning against making coils is the inductance added. -
Thanks for the headache, Pete.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Spec's - Schmecks......What does it sound like?
End result as to what hits your ears. Is there anything more important?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Spec's - Schmecks......What does it sound like?
End result as to what hits your ears. Is there anything more important?
AMEN to that
one can go crazy with all the pros and cons of this and that...if it sounds good then be happy and enjoy.... -
I hope we didn't scare Pete away.
I was and am courous what he does for a living cause the average to above average "Audio Joe" just would not have a need or knowlage of that kind of info.
I wasn't trying to be smart just courous. -
He posted in another thread that he is a piano and organ tuner with a background in physics and electronics. Correction may be required.
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He posted in another thread that he is a piano and organ tuner with a background in physics and electronics. Correction may be required.
Cool the ED. would explain the detailed answer but the career choice doesn't match, but... too each his own as long as he's content, there's no shame in anything one chooses.
Dave -
I play organ and my organ teacher encouraged me to tune some bad notes...
then we started tuning the whole organ.
I listen to organ records on old sansui 16" stereo speakers these work at 32Hz and almost work at 16hz if you ever hear a real organ you can tell instantly that a 12" speaker cant do the pedal notes.
actually im an electronic engineer, i work in solar energy.
i work with a couple physists.
the reason house wiring has number 12 wire for 20A has to do with not setting the wood 2x4s on fire NEC is also called NFPA 7
solar cells with about 12 amps tend to use #4 wire
a 15KW solar array tends to cost about $4/watt
there is perhaps 2000' of wire
#12 is 3.2 ohms. at 12Amps 40 watts lost to heating wire.
which means $160 lost to the power required to heat the wire for every hour the cells collect energy 2000' of #12 costs about $100
#10 looses $80 / hour and costs $200
so at some point, in this case of 12A the #4 wire is more econimical than the #2
a vacuum cleaner at 12a may use #16 wire the cord may be uncomfortable or hot to hold
but it wont set anything on fire unless its coiled and in an insulated box.
a well pump 100' deep 100' from the house may not run at all without changeing that #14 wire that wont catch on fire with the 15a to say #6 so it has 60v left to start the pump.
speaker wire generally goes to a 8 ohm speaker
100W at 8 ohms is 3.5A
if you spend $300 for a 100W amplifier thats $3 per watt
if you have 2 $500 speakers thats $13/watt
if the speakers are 20' from the amp thats 40' of wire 20' square room perhaps
.005 ohms #12
.06watts at $13 /watt
$0.81 of that equipment investment lost to heating the wire for every hour of use@100W.
100w in a 20x20 room with decent speakers like 10% efficient is in the threshold of pain
this should be about 120dba or so where its no longer percived as sound but as pain.
but at any rate the previous post has to do with the difference in wire material /design for audio. That sort of says a larger gauge may make a slight difference.
it also says there will be no difference between #16 lamp cord and #16 leitz wire or rg58u
if you try to drive a speaker.
to run that fm antenna at 90Mhz you better use the right wire.
