Balanced vs Unbalanced inputs
jazzisnumberone
Posts: 53
Can someone tell me the difference between the two. I've looked at the rear of many amplifiers and wondered what is the difference. I just hook my amplifiers to my speakers. I have a MM9000 five channel amp, a 2 channel NAD amp and a Onkyo A 8067 integrated amp. All of those do not have these types of inputs. So i defer to someone with more knowledge to educate me. Thanks in advance for any responses
Post edited by jazzisnumberone on
Comments
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PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8628&highlight=unbalanced
hope all these help. there are tons more.. just do a search for unbalanced. and you'll find lots more reading to keep you busy till the end of the year. LOL
PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
Since my latest purchase of a Krell amp, Krell preamp, & Cambridge Audio 840C player, I have experienced first hand the benefits of a true balanced system. The benefits are outstanding. Here's a link to some info from the BAT web site (under the FAQ section). If given the choice, I would pick balanced all day long.
http://www.balanced.com/"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
You're right about lots of reading. So much to read. Not enuf time.
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ok then you should know balanced trumps unbalanced, it has to do with having its own seperate ground. I get substantially lower noise floor with my tube gear running balanced.
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Can you re-configure existing equipment? or just better buy new?
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pearsall001 wrote: »Since my latest purchase of a Krell amp, Krell preamp, & Cambridge Audio 840C player, I have experienced first hand the benefits of a true balanced system. The benefits are outstanding. Here's a link to some info from the BAT web site (under the FAQ section). If given the choice, I would pick balanced all day long.
http://www.balanced.com/
I agree completely!!! -
you would need to just buy balanced gear unless your an advanced circuit design engineer with an entire shop full of goodies, even then you would have some sort of frankenstines monster.
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No dice on that advice, trouble.
A single output signal can be made differential with the use of a single transformer. From there, you can recombine using another transformer on the receiving end for unbalanced equipment or plug straight into balanced inputs.
The other option would involve building a circuit and using op-amps. This will have better bandwidth performance over the transformer approach. Due to the size of transformer needed(very small 600 ohm transformer), I don't expect a cost savings by going with one route over the other.
edit: balanced signals are intended for long runs or high noise(electrical noise) areas as they provide good immunity. -
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Alot of people forget why there are advantages to a balanced system. It really doesn't have much to do with the ground, though. The balanced configuration of the signals (2 exact signals, 180 degrees out of phase) lends massive Common Mode Noise Reduction as compared to single ended (like 20-30db). Additionally, almost all amps with balanced inputs have one less gain stage (inverter/phase splitter) so that really helps clean things up, alot. Actually being balanced, a ground isn't even required, since you are looking a the potential between the two signals, with no real relation to ground...www.forceaudio.com .... We cut through the BS.
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Are you sure about the ground?
I can't figure out how you would invert one signal using a virtual ground in order to sum the signals at the receiver.
By the way, if you think balanced is a thing of the past, look at cat5 cable. Ethernet uses balanced transmission lines. -
I am sure about the ground.
Balanced transmissions has nothing to due with ground. It is 2 identical signals out of phase 180 degrees. They don't have to be referenced to anything. Remember, the ouput of a balanced circuit is taken from the difference of potential of the 2 signals.
If you lifted pin 1 on your XLR (ground) you would not loose any signal... Assuming your system is truly balanced... The ground is pretty much only used for shielding purposes in this case...
All RS422 standards are differential (balanced) as are many other data transmission standards. CAT 5 cable is indeed used often with balanced signals, and where is the 3rd ground wire for each pair or any ground wire for that matter located on a CAT 5 cable?
Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying the ground is useless, it is still a reference used by many things (the amplifiers for instance creating the balanced signal) and signals are still referenced to it at some points, BUT, for balanced transmission, all the data/audio etc is carried on the 2 signal wires, completely independant of the ground(s).www.forceaudio.com .... We cut through the BS. -
No dice on that advice, trouble.
A single output signal can be made differential with the use of a single transformer. From there, you can recombine using another transformer on the receiving end for unbalanced equipment or plug straight into balanced inputs.
The other option would involve building a circuit and using op-amps. This will have better bandwidth performance over the transformer approach. Due to the size of transformer needed(very small 600 ohm transformer), I don't expect a cost savings by going with one route over the other.
edit: balanced signals are intended for long runs or high noise(electrical noise) areas as they provide good immunity.
ed zachery visits again.
not sure how I got along without your vast knowledge. But go back and actually read what I said. Your better off buying balanced gear, so ace, take your transformer to your individual land of darkness and give it a mighty heave ho, send it deep. you see since the man asked he obviously is not into buliding circuits onto his gear to make frankenstien's monster out of it, but thanks for covering our netherlands, we are all impressed, except you rolled snake eyes, get it dice, I mean ace.
Honda is correct about the inverted phases.
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LMAO! You're hilarious, trouble. I've got this killer run of 6" from my pre to my amp, what kinf of balanced gear do you suggest for me? There's more to the story than just, "yeah, that amp is better because it has balanced inputs".
Read what you said? I suggest you do it. You've said balanced trumps unbalanced because of its own seperate ground. We've just covered this, it is false. You also said you would need a complicated circuit to convert unbalanced to balanced. This is also false. A single component with 2 wires in and 3 wires out is not hard to figure out. As a kid, you were expected to build an electric motor in grade 9, and we all did. The OP is new to the term and wants to understand what it means. You have not helped him in this regard.
Honda, I was thinking of summing the signals by inverting one and adding. Now I see that a simple substraction is the same thing and will not need a ground. Cheers. -
blah blah blah
well on the bright side you can power your own sailboat. you should contact Khomenko I am sure he would be most interested in your stipulations.
Edit--What the Hell, just for the record.
Oh yea, balanced trumps unbalanced.
In a balanced system, a separate shield or ground conductor is used to connect the two chassis together, reducing the voltage difference between them which subsequently lowers the noise. But whata I know.
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I'm no guru on the subject but I've always guessed that if there is no noise concern in the area of the components and no ground loop potential between the system components then it wouldn't matter much which type of input you use. (unless of course more components are put in the signal path one way or the other).
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...
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Chuck,
As I have come to understand the single ended connector uses the common conducter as a signal return path, since the two components will very likely have voltage differences between the chassis of the two components, when single-ended cables are connected between these two components, this voltage difference will appear along the common conductor (shield) of the interconnect. The shield carry's the ground noise current between the two chassis. This adds to noise and distortion. In a balanced system there are two dedicated conductors to provide forward and return paths for signal. The ground connection in balanced configurations is accomplished by means of a third, dedicated, ground conductor. All this results in a cleaner signal.....but I am getting beyond Blah blah blah on the subject, again......balanced trumps unbalanced, or when I use balanced my system sounds better than unbalanced, the typical noise you hear at the speaker when you put your ear to it vanishes.
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Balanced when properly implemented can potentially double the cost of an amplifier's overhead; you must take into consideration that other aspects of an amplifier are cut in order to maintain costs. The simple answer is 'it depends'. Some designers would consider a balanced output insane simply because the design calls for higher tolerances of distortion and other critical areas such as power supply and output devices must scaled in order to meet the costs. I would suggest using ones ears. Also note that the gain difference is usually 3-6db higher using balanced connections and many people hear the volume when switching back and forth without matching levels first. This is perceived entirely as better sound when it may only be louder.
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I've never heard a difference between the two connections.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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If you have the ground conductor, either single ended or balanced, acting as a path to equalize the voltage potential between different equipment, you are increaing possible noise, that is not the primary purpose of the ground on signal cables.
Balanced amplifiers often have a more simplistic circuit(s) than single ended, again, they will have one less gainstage. Often the higher cost comes from manufacturing balanced gear more twards higher end customers, hence the higher prices do to better parts quality, etc....
There is no "Forward" or "Return" with a balanced signal, it does not rely on current flow to/from or back to a source, it is simply a voltage potential between 2 identical, but phase inverted signals.
Don't assume balanced is expensive, there are literally thousands of pro-audio products that are so cheap it is insane, that are purely balanced.
A lot really stems form the fact that the advantages of balanced signals aren't as apparent with home equipment because it's benefits aren't exploited as much do to our short signal runs and lower noise environments, if it wasn't for that, I would be willing to bet you would see a ton more balanced gear in the home...www.forceaudio.com .... We cut through the BS. -
All I suggest is that one does not overlook great gear just because it is not fully balanced. There are many great amps/pre etc. that are expensive and do not balance. I have spoken with some hardcore 2 channel guys, some that own their own shops, that do not like balanced gear for whatever reason.
Find what you like and go for it.
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At minimum the balanced input/output will need one more stage ,the inverter.This is how the - half of the signal is derived.Also the ground pin in a balanced cable is meant to be connected to the cables shield.This will reduce the likelihood of RF and other noise.
Balanced amplifiers often have a more simplistic circuit(s) than single ended, again, they will have one less gainstage.Testing
Testing
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At minimum the balanced input/output will need one more stage ,the inverter.This is how the - half of the signal is derived.Also the ground pin in a balanced cable is meant to be connected to the cables shield.This will reduce the likelihood of RF and other noise.
Not true. A balanced amplifier will NOT have a phase splitter/inverter on the input, it is not needed with a balanced signal, nothing needs to generate the -or inverted signal, it is already present from the source. In fact, amplifiers that have balanced and unbalanced inputs bypass the phase inverter in balanced mode because it is not needed.....
Depending on the design of the pre-amp or source (not the amplifier here), they may have in inverter, unless they are balanced through, they they don't.... In that case they are usually just symmetrical circuits.
Not all balanced cables are shielded, and pin one isn't always used as a shield. Just about every pro audio balanced cable is shielded, due to the environment they operate in, but many balnced cables for home audio are unshielded, like many Kimber designs that are balanced. Again, this goes back to my point of many systems geared for home use are not fully exploiting the benefits of balanced topology because they just aren't as apparent.www.forceaudio.com .... We cut through the BS. -
Just curious.... is there any benefit in having a balanced digital xlr cable going from a source (CD Transort) to a DAC?
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balanced trumps unbalanced
its time for doro to hear a reel system. I'll get the popcorn ready.
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reeltrouble1 wrote: »balanced trumps unbalanced
its time for doro to hear a reel system. I'll get the popcorn ready.
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Without a doubt! A low noise floor is always strived for in anyone's system. This is where it all begins. Running balanced, a noise floor simply doesn't exist. You might think your system is quiet until you experience a complete "true" balanced system. By true I mean some companies state balanced but they really aren't. Putting an XLR connector on a single ended cable does not a "true" balanced make. Beware of the claim.
Also a few other +'s of running balanced: 1) Without a doubt, connector quality, 2) Interface noise immunity, 3) Interface power supply-gain stage interaction. These are just a few of the many advantages of a "true" balanced system.
And by no means does it have to be a long run to reap the benefits. You hear that a lot but it simply isn't the case."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Agreed but a"fully balanced" is not simpler as you alluded to in your previous post.It is far more complex as two complete signal paths are need one for the + and one for the-.Not true. A balanced amplifier will NOT have a phase splitter/inverter on the input,
But many times it is and for the reasons mentioned.Not all balanced cables are shielded, and pin one isn't always used as a shield.Testing
Testing
Testing
