Low-powered amp and sub recommendation - please?

grateful72

Hello all! Looking for some advice from the Polk fans.

In my Ford Ranger truck, I am using a pair of Polk DB570's. We like them, esp. for the $50 we paid for them, but not quite as nice as the momo's in the other vehicle.

I would like to power the 570's with a modest 4-channel amp. ~ 50w rms x 2 and bridged at ~ 160 rms at 4 ohms for a sub to be purchased.

Below are the amps we are looking at:

Alpine MRP-F300
Kicker ZX 350.4
MB Quart Reference Amp RAB 450

Which would you pick? Any other suggestions?

Each of the amps has ~ 150 - 170w bridged at 4 ohms for a sub. We currently use an Image Dynamics IDQ10.v3 in the other car, and love it. But, 150 watts rms does not seem like enough for the IDQ10.v3. Or is it?
Can anyone suggest a decent low-powered sub for this? Looking mainly for sound quality.

Below are the subs we are looking at:

Image Dynamics ID10
JL Audio 10w1v2

Any Polk subs that would work well with only 150 watts?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Jstas

I would probably go with the Alpine amp. There might be other alternatives too. Why are you limiting yourself so much? Any particular reason?

Between those subs you chose, I would go with the Image Dynamics sub. As nice as most people think JL is, I think Image Dynamics has it all over JL.

As for Polk subs that would work well at 150 watts, the DB series subs would be great especially since they are voiced similarly. They are fairly inexpensive too.

grateful72

Thanks Jstas!

I am only limiting myself b/c of money, and it's my wife's truck . She doesn't need it to be too loud, but I want it loud enough for me when I use it. Also, my theory is that with a small cabin like the Ranger, 100 watts to speakers and 160 watts to a sub would be plenty loud. The problem I'm finding is that most recommendations of quality subs recommend power hungry subs.


BUT, if 160 rms is enough to power a sub that has a power rating of say 50 - 300 rms, then I would definintely get a better sub. I just don't want to underpower a nice sub (like the IDQ10 or Polk MM2104).


Maybe my theories are wrong Let me know if they are. Thanks again.

Jstas

Well, honestly, being a Ranger owner myself, even the newer ones with all the sound-deadening are still quite noisy. When I was driving mine daily, I found that I needed serious power just to hear the radio at highway speeds. So if it's money that is an issue, don't be afraid to look at some other brands too that might give you more punch for your buck. Stuff like Kenwood's non-eXcelon series, Profile's California series and even the Hifonics stuff all put up good numbers and are pretty reliable while being inexpensive. They will compete directly with the amps you mentioned too.

As for your sub rating, you don't have to maximize your power to the sub's power handling capabilities. You can run the sub at as low as 35% of it's full power handling and still get some modicum of performance out of it. You just need to ensure that you are not trying to drag more out of the sub/amp combo than what you have because if the sub can handle say 300 watts and you only throw 100 watts at it, you will want to crank that gain up to get the performance you want out of it.

The problem with that is that while your sub can still perform and it's not near it's peak, your amplifier has very little overhead left for those musical peaks and it will then either clip or start chewing up your sub through distortion. So you want to have a decent amount of power that is comparable to your sub's power handling capabilities.

But, in the interest of budget, you work with what you got, ya know? So if you grab a subwoofer, you want to look at one rating that will mean the most to you for power handling. Look at the sensitivity, sometimes listed as efficiency and see what that number is. It will usually be something like 87 dB. The higher that number, the louder that sub will play with given power levels. Super power subs usually rank in the 78-84 dB range because voice coils and cone materials are heavy and beefy and require alot of juice to move. Good sound quality subs have some of the density of the big bad subs but use lighter materials so transitions and response is faster and more accurate. You will see them in an 85-91 dB range usually. Then you have the light subs that won't handle alot of power but don't need alot of power and they are the 92 dB+ range. If you go for something in the 85-91 dB range, you will be able to literally run it at half of its full power in an adequate box, without problems and get it to perform very well.

I mean hell, I ran a Polk Audio dB104 for 10 years with only 200 of it's 350 watts on it and it performed like a champ and impressed many, many people. So yes, you can underpower a sub if you are smart about it.

grateful72

Thanks again Jstas! Awesome info.

I will look into the other brand amps and I will look for a sub with the specs you recommended.

Much appreciated.

Jstas

grateful72 wrote: »

Thanks again Jstas! Awesome info.

I will look into the other brand amps and I will look for a sub with the specs you recommended.

Much appreciated.

Dude, a sub with the specs I mentioned is right here. A DB104 will do you just fine and match those DB speakers you already have quite well.

Jstas

Oh, another amp company that I have been liking alot lately the more I see of them is Soundstream. They can be a little difficult to find but worth the effort.

grateful72

How about the Polk Momo MM2104? It's within my budget. It handles only 30 more watts RMS than the db104 and has the same sensitivity at 86db. Will that work with the amp specs I suggested?


FYI....I plan on upgrading the db570's in the front in the next year or so to Momo components anyway.

Jstas

Yeah, it can but the MMC will sound different but if you are going to be upgrading, future planning is good.

grateful72

Soundstream - I keep hearing that they are on the up. I think wooferetc has some decent deals on soundstream. I will look into it. Thanks brother.

grateful72

Soundstream Xtreme Sereies Amp XTA480.4

According to the manual:
4 x 60w rms
240w rms x 2 bridged at 4 ohms

Looks like a nice amp. The 240 x 2 bridged at 4 ohms seems overstated, but who knows. Subsonic filter looks strange with the low-end at 60hz. Only $149 at woofers or less at onlinecarstereo.

Ya like Jstas?

Jstas

Well, the Xtreme series is their old mid level stuff without all the bells and whistles. But Soundstream has some fairly innovative amplifier circuits they have used in the past and it is not unusual for them to come up with amps that will have things like discrete power output circuits that when bridged can double power output from what you would normally expect. Then again, it might be a misprint and that power rating is peak. Then again, even the owner's manual says that they are 240 x 2 bridged at 4 ohms. So there is probably a truth to it.

If that is the case, that amp looks to be right up your ally and the 60 watts per channel is likely underrated a bit but 60 watts of power on your full range speakers is plenty of juice for MMC's and more than enough for the DB's. At $149 that's alot of power for not alot of juice. I think I'd go with that one over the others you listed.


Here is the owner's manual:
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2006/AMP/xstream-amplifiers.pdf

The specs are more accurate and you can get a better idea of what you are looking at that what some two-bit website screws up on the specs. BTW, the high-pas filter stops at 50 Hz, The low pass has a crossover range of 30-500 Hz.

grateful72

Yup. I checked the manual already. If you look on the pic of the amp (page 9), it has a subsonic knob (#21 of the diagram) that only goes down to 60hz. Maybe that's an error. I can't find a real pic anywhere to see what the low end of the freq range says on a real amp versus a drawing. Maybe I'll call tech support to see what that is all about.

Also, if SS has innovative amp circuits, then I see what you mean on doubling the bridged output. That's pretty cool that they are able to do that. 240 watts bridged vs 175 watts (like on the Kicker) is a huge difference.

Thanks again man.

Jstas

Soundstream was the holy grail at one point when car audio got HUGE in the 90's. They are re-releasing the Reference series which was, hands down, one of the best if not the best series of amplifiers any company made. But they updated them with the modern, more efficient MOSFET circuits instead of the old stuff. Allows for more power production and cleaner output. They have insane specifications for the cost. I haven't heard much about reliability and build quality and stuff but from what I've seen of the other stuff, Soundstream is back.

grateful72

i am looking at the woofersetc site, and they have the same phone number as the image dynamics store site. Is it the same company, or is ID just using woofersetc.com as a storefront?

Also, would you buy from woofersetc.com or from onlinecarstereo.com? Anyone tried either?

Jstas

I think the woofersetc site is the only authorized online dealer for ID.

I've used onlinecarstereo before and didn't have any issues.

eloplayspolo

what would be wrong with something like this... http://www.amazon.com/Kicker-ZX650-4-4-channel-amplifier-watts/dp/B000GM6916/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1201817608&sr=1-6

Jstas

Because that's probably more than he wants to spend.

Giving recommendations has more variables to it than just specs and balls-to-the-wall performance. The guy said he had a budget that is pretty much rigid. That amp is more than he is willing to spend and given it's power ratings, he'd probably have to spend more on a different sub to handle that 325W x 1. The Soundstream amp he posted is going to fit his bill quite nicely and is only going to run him $150 or less plus shipping. That amp is $215.00 plus shipping and in the end, he's gonna end up spending $65 more for an amp that doesn't hit the mark but rather, overshoots it. Besides, the Kicker amps put out power but I think that Soundstream he chose is a better amp all around.

There is a difference between good advice and just advice.

eloplayspolo

he said he was going to upgrade later.... the kicker is a much better investment for 65 bucks.. instead of later deciding that when he gets the momos hes going to want a little more.... it was a suggestion.

grateful72

In my other vehicle, I currently have a Boston amp that sends 55w rms to each of my MMC650 coax's. For me, that's enough power and the 650's sound great to me, even though I am not powering to the limits of potential. I don't think the the MMC6500 components would sound too much different (to me) with the same 55 watts rms. Anyone disagree?

Plus, I really don't want to put the strain of 325+120+120=565 watts on my Ranger's electrical system and battery. Maybe that's a non-issue, but the benefits of the extra 200 watts or so don't outweigh my peace of mind with a lower-powered system. I have about 410 watts going in my other vehicle and it is plenty loud enough for me, and I don't feel like lack of power causes any SQ issues that are noticeable to me.

Otherwise, yes I would consider the Kicker with more power. I like my Kicker monoblock in my other vehicle; it's definitely worth it from a cost per watt perspective, but I just don't feel like a thirty-something like me needs all those watts .

eloplayspolo

fair enough

MarcLazarek78

JL subs are by far the best and always will be. Paired with a Pioneer GM amp, ur set.

Back in '95 I had a Pioneer GMH 100 (50x2) bridged into 2 4ohm JL 12w1's parallel in a sealed box,no divider in the back of my '86 nissan kingcab 4x4. and at an IASCA sound comp registered 134.9db. which was about 5db more than anyone else and they spent about 10x more on their stereos than I did. They were getting mad when they cranked the gains on their amps and still weren't getting close.

I also had 2 sony 6x9' 2way's in separate sealed boxes wedged on the sides of the sub box,and two Boston Acoustic 5 1/4's in the doors run of a cheap sentrek amp. And was using an old Blaubaunk tape deck with an RCA converter,and a 9 band dash EQ. That system was my favorite.

ascalon

Pioneer amps suck in my experience when pushed near their limit, particularly AB class (and I used mine to power some little 150 watt rms subs). Pioneer subs, like the TS-W301R, 150 watt subs are nice for low power, low budget, and high sensitivity. They get pretty darn loud too. I highly recommend kicker amps. They are awesome performers, better than brands like Pioneer. I would suggest getting an amp that can supply about the same amount of power you want from your subs at 4 ohms, and with a higher output at 2 ohms so you can upgrade in the future. That makes things better for you, and your equipment.

MarcLazarek78

10w1v2 .625 square ft sealed box
12w1v2 1.25 sq ft sealed box

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductList.aspx?CategoryID=18&ManufacturerID=621

Both have the same power ratings.
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=17895

That amp will run 1 or 2 perfectly. 150w bridged at 4ohm into one. if you just connect another sub to that sub they will be at about 125w each and the amp will see 2ohms.

I'd get 2 10's at least,and you only need a box 1.25 cu ft. but if you can go another 1.25cu ft get the 12's man.

JL site is where the info is if you need to see it urself.

MarcLazarek78

ascalon wrote: »

Pioneer amps suck in my experience when pushed near their limit, particularly AB class (and I used mine to power some little 150 watt rms subs). Pioneer subs, like the TS-W301R, 150 watt subs are nice for low power, low budget, and high sensitivity. They get pretty darn loud too. I highly recommend kicker amps. They are awesome performers, better than brands like Pioneer. I would suggest getting an amp that can supply about the same amount of power you want from your subs at 4 ohms, and with a higher output at 2 ohms so you can upgrade in the future. That makes things better for you, and your equipment.

well,you have your experience and I have mine which I've explained every detail how I got to 134.9. it wasnt an "official" IASCA comp,but were using rated equipment.They just let you play ur own cd,and i was playing a rap song called "Renee" by the Lost Boyz. It had hard low bass. "If Ruled The World" by Nas is where it used to rumble hard.