A/B test at Lasareath's
Serendipity
Posts: 6,975
I was thinking about this the other day -
At the recent NY/NJ gathering we hooked up Sal's Sony ES CDP and compared it to my Onkyo DV-CP500 that I brought that day. Both players were hooked up to an Onkyo TX-NR801 receiver via optical, which did the source switching.
We did a test in which two identical CDs were placed in both players, and pressed the PLAY button on both players at the same time. Then, Sal switched the inputs on the receiver to compare the two CD players.
At this point a double-blind test was set up and everyone was asked to enter the room. The sources were switched every 30 seconds or so to see which player sounded better.
To my surprise, the two players sounded different from each other!! Even weirder, they were both hooked up via the optical input! If the receiver was doing all of the digital-analog conversion, how in the world could the two players have sounded different???
At the recent NY/NJ gathering we hooked up Sal's Sony ES CDP and compared it to my Onkyo DV-CP500 that I brought that day. Both players were hooked up to an Onkyo TX-NR801 receiver via optical, which did the source switching.
We did a test in which two identical CDs were placed in both players, and pressed the PLAY button on both players at the same time. Then, Sal switched the inputs on the receiver to compare the two CD players.
At this point a double-blind test was set up and everyone was asked to enter the room. The sources were switched every 30 seconds or so to see which player sounded better.
To my surprise, the two players sounded different from each other!! Even weirder, they were both hooked up via the optical input! If the receiver was doing all of the digital-analog conversion, how in the world could the two players have sounded different???
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Post edited by Serendipity on
Comments
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Interesting. Could have been slight differences in level. Were they level matched?
BTW, that's a single blind test. -
Interesting. Could have been slight differences in level. Were they level matched?
BTW, that's a single blind test.
Oops, I got that wrong.
We did not level match the two players, but they sounded to be at the same level. What I noticed was that the Onkyo had a much crisper high end, while the Sony ES sounded warmer. I may be wrong but the Onkyo also seemed to have more detail, but this may be due to the fact that it was just brighter than the Sony.
Still very weird though.polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
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Two different transports. They do make a difference.
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Forgot to add - except for Sal, nobody knew which CDP was playing at the time until the test was over. Then it was revealed which one was the Onkyo and which one was the Sony ES. So in my mind I could only think "Player A" vs. "Player B" not knowing which one was playing.polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
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hearingimpared wrote: »Two different transports. They do make a difference.
I thought the optical connection just "spits out" whatever data is being read from the transport? If that were the case, then would it mean that the two transports were reading the CD data differently?
I don't get it - data is 1s and 0s.polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
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hearingimpared wrote: »Two different transports. They do make a difference.
If the two players level matched to within 1db the test is doomed to fail. We'll pick up on the player that sounds louder (even if it's just a bit) & we'll preceive that one to sound better. It's just the way we humans are wired.
PS-any drinking involved as the test progressed!!"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
pearsall001 wrote: »If the two players level matched to within 1db the test is doomed to fail. We'll pick up on the player that sounds louder (even if it's just a bit) & we'll preceive that one to sound better. It's just the way we humans are wired.
PS-any drinking involved as the test progressed!!
I found the players to sound different, not necessarily louder. On another note, isn't the optical connection just supposed to carry data? I don't see how the transport could alter that data, as (like stated before) it's just 1s and 0s.polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
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Forgot to add - except for Sal, nobody knew which CDP was playing at the time until the test was over. Then it was revealed which one was the Onkyo and which one was the Sony ES. So in my mind I could only think "Player A" vs. "Player B" not knowing which one was playing.
You mean that you knew whether "A", or "B" was playing, and after the identities were revealed? That's not even single blind.
I thought Sal was randomly switching, and you were able to pick A or B correctly. That would prove that a difference was actually heard. -
You mean that you knew whether "A", or "B" was playing, and after the identities were revealed? That's not even single blind.
I thought Sal was randomly switching, and you were able to pick A or B correctly. That would prove that a difference was actually heard.
No, I didn't know whether "A" or "B" was playing.
I was able to pick an "A" or "B" in my mind correctly, before the test was over.
And yes, Sal was randomly switching.polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
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No, I didn't know whether "A" or "B" was playing.
I was able to pick an "A" or "B" in my mind correctly, before the test was over.
And yes, Sal was randomly switching.
Got it. -
BTW, I'd like to do more of these tests in the future.
Something like "Cable A" vs. "Cable B", or a high-end amp vs. an inexpensive pro amp, etc. I think the results will be surprising
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That test surprised a few of us."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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To my surprise, the two players sounded different from each other!! Even weirder, they were both hooked up via the optical input! If the receiver was doing all of the digital-analog conversion, how in the world could the two players have sounded different???
different chip sets.. different build quality.. different everything.. what did you expect? Them to sound nearly the same? Ha never. were the optical cables the same or were they different too? so many things come into play...
now if you both had the same Sony model or the same Onkyo model CDP, and they sounded different.. that i'd prob pee my pants. different brands, different builds, different years probably .. so many variables to consider. that's how.
PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
I thought the optical connection just "spits out" whatever data is being read from the transport? If that were the case, then would it mean that the two transports were reading the CD data differently?
I don't get it - data is 1s and 0s.
this gets debated over and over again till we all puke and nothing is ever reached... there again.. you're not taking into account the different builds and brands of each CD player.. 1's and 0's from 8 brands of CD players. might have 8 different sounds... because of different chip sets.. D/A conversion. etc. power supplies... a Pioneer Elite may have a much different power supply from a Onkyo Integra, Denon, Sony, Panasonic, etc.
cables do make a difference.. PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
I believe the same optical cable was used for both tests."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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When people say "they are just 1's & 0's" it cracks me up. What do you think there is a Morse Code key clicking off and on. Those 1's & 0's have to be moved from the the laser to the DAC. It's all the guts of the transport and the like that make the difference. **** components in the "guts" **** sound. Excellent transport like an Esoteric transport and you start off with excellent sound.
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I heard no difference on some of the material being played such as Dire Straights - Brothers in Arms. There was a clear difference in whatever song we played first. Alex, you forgot to mention you were busting on Sal because we thought your player sounded better on the first song.
I thought that was brave thing to do considering he had a 4' sword just 15 feet away
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I found the players to sound different, not necessarily louder. On another note, isn't the optical connection just supposed to carry data? I don't see how the transport could alter that data, as (like stated before) it's just 1s and 0s.
Players don't direct output optical. The data is decoded from the disk, then converteted
back to optical. The zero's and One's are read "best effort". In other words, the
original playback standards assumed not much buffering, and didn't include re-reading bad data.
And the clock is derived from the data stream, so if you start getting bad data,
you can lose clock, which can sound bad, or stop/stutter playback. In other words,
IT'S NOT LIKE A CDROM! Stop applying modern computer standards to a format developed
in the late 70's. I see this all the time. The Redbook standard is dated,
but survives because so much hardware and media are out there.
SACD is dead, DVD audio is dead, and there is no real plan to replace
standard audio cd's other than lame MP3. Apple has a plan, and it means you
won't be playing anything on hardware other than Mac. And the industry has
a plan that will be all about "digital rights management"."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
Did you have your coffee yet?sucks2beme wrote: »Players don't direct output optical. The data is decoded from the disk, then converteted
back to optical. The zero's and One's are read "best effort". In other words, the
original playback standards assumed not much buffering, and didn't include re-reading bad data.
And the clock is derived from the data stream, so if you start getting bad data,
you can lose clock, which can sound bad, or stop/stutter playback. In other words,
IT'S NOT LIKE A CDROM! Stop applying modern computer standards to a format developed
in the late 70's. I see this all the time. The Redbook standard is dated,
but survives because so much hardware and media are out there.
SACD is dead, DVD audio is dead, and there is no real plan to replace
standard audio cd's other than lame MP3. Apple has a plan, and it means you
won't be playing anything on hardware other than Mac. And the industry has
a plan that will be all about "digital rights management".
I agree with most of your points."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I found the players to sound different, not necessarily louder. On another note, isn't the optical connection just supposed to carry data? I don't see how the transport could alter that data, as (like stated before) it's just 1s and 0s.
That's exactly my point. If you didn't take the time to correctly level match both players than you're just spinning your wheels. The perception of sounding different, not necessarialy better can be swayed by the littlest of difference in volumn.
And yes they might just be 0's & 1's but there's a world of difference on how well that information gets extracted from the CD. Did you ever hear of jitter?"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
There was a room full of us, and on that one song (that m00npie and I can't remember the title of), there was a distinct difference that I don't believe volume could have affected.
appadv, Las, do you remember which song that was?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I thought it was Sal's Bob Marley Cd but I can't be sure.
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There was an A/B test that day
???
BTW, wasn't that song by Mary J Blige or something?
JHC, I can't remember it either!So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?
http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/ -
There was an A/B test that day???
So much for your clinical A/B testing!!! It sounds like you guys were having too much fun to really do any critical listening that an A/B test requires. As long as Sal didn't play that hidious "Bjork" (I think that's her name) that's one that would sound like **** no matter what player it was spinning on!! God awful! :eek:"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Nevermind. Move along. Nothing to see here.
Carry on.........~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
hearingimpared wrote: »Two different transports. They do make a difference.
Exactly. Proof that transports can effect sound. I found this out for myself when I did a comparison of a Denon DVD-2910 and my CEC CD-3300 both connected to my Benchmark DAC. The CEC won.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
Wow, you learn something every day polkaudio RT35 Bookshelves
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i give up.. maybe this will make some sense to everyone.. you have two cars.... one is a Mustang, the other a Camaro. do you think they are going to accelarate the same? will they drive the same? will they handle corners the same.. and lastly will they sound the same?
big phat NO! why? because they are two very different cars... same with A/B of same song on different makes, models and brands of CDP's.
i'm out. you all can debate it till you're blue in the face...
TGIF!PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
Hey fellas, I hate to throw a wrench into the conversation but could the difference possibly have been from it being the same disc recorded or duped by two different companies? Not at all saying that is what caused it, but the possibility could exist.
For example, when I was talking with a fellow Polkie last night, I relayed to him that since hearing Donald Fagan's "Morph the Cat", I have bought a few copies in different formats. I ended up with 2 redbook copies which in theory should be identical, however the CD that came with the DVD in one package sounds better than the CD that was sold individually.
I have also purchased CD's from certain companies that, should I say sound like some little teenage zit poppin' twerp half way around the globe duped on his 'pooter compared to the same recording from another company.
I have no copies of "Morph the Cat," hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink of an eye, wink of an eye, know what I mean, know what I mean. -
hearingimpared wrote: »I have no copies of "Morph the Cat," hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink of an eye, wink of an eye, know what I mean, know what I mean.
Say no more....;)Wristwatch--->Crisco
