Increasing the soundstage on my LSI 15's

tcrossma

First let me say my LSi15's sound fantastic. Imaging is spot-on, great dynamics, smooth. All around no complaints. However, in 2-channel I find that the soundstage isn't very wide or deep. Vocals are centered perfectly but left/right sounds just seem to be anchored in the speakers themselves instead of extending out past the width of the speakers.

My system is a combined HT/music rig and I know i'm making a few consessions when it comes to 2-channel music. What i'm wanting to know is if there's usually a single culprit that causes this lack of a wide soundstage, or if there's a punchlist of things to try to narrow down the cause? I've experimented with positioning and toe-in, but it doesn't seem to change much.

I'm currently in the process of upgrading my speaker cables from a relatively low-end set of Monsters, so that may help a bit. I've got Signal Analog 2 interconnects which shouldn't be holding things back.

Honestly i'm hoping that some good new speaker cables will open things up a bit, but what do you guys think might be the issue?

dkg999

My first guess would be that the 2 ch pre capabilities of the Yamaha AVR are not the best. I had a couple of Yamaha AVR's and even in 2 ch direct they weren't all that great. If you have access to another 2 ch pre, I would try swapping that in and see if the soundstage gets to where you want it. That would then highlight that the AVR is the weak link.

tonyb

How are they set up? From the rear wall and side walls?
Agree on the yammie.A different pre is in your future.

Early B.

I certainly agree with dkg999 on the Yammie. For starters, you need a 2-channel pre.

A couple of questions, though --

How large is your room?
How far are the speakers from the side walls?
Have you tried switching the left and right speakers?

VR3

Preamp and source is VERY important...

And believe it or not, the next step up in Amps over your B&K would be a very significant upgrade...

Gizmo99

Early B. wrote: »

I certainly agree with dkg999 on the Yammie. For starters, you need a 2-channel pre.

A couple of questions, though --

How large is your room?
How far are the speakers from the side walls?
Have you tried switching the left and right speakers?

What is the recommended room required between the side walls? Currently I dont have much room for my right speaker (its about 3-4 feet from the side wall and I do feel that speaker is louder probably because of reflection than my left speaker.

Gizmo99

Gizmo99 wrote: »

What is the recommended room required between the side walls? Currently I dont have much room for my right speaker (its about 3-4 feet from the side wall and I do feel that speaker is louder probably because of reflection than my left speaker.

Nevermind, I found my answer in http://www.polkaudio.com/downloads/hthandbook.pdf

Early B.

Gizmo99 wrote: »

What is the recommended room required between the side walls? Currently I dont have much room for my right speaker (its about 3-4 feet from the side wall and I do feel that speaker is louder probably because of reflection than my left speaker.

I have the same issue. My right speaker is less than 2 feet from the side wall. I compensate by toeing it in a little more. My left speaker used to be louder, but I dealt with it through placement -- by moving the it a few inches to the left. Worked great. Keep in mind that even an inch or so can make a big difference.

dragon1952

I think you should experiment with speaker positioning/toe-in and room set-up before you spend big bucks on anything. I doubt the speaker cables will make a huge difference.
A great CD for soundstage and imaging is Spyro Gyra's 'Dreams Beyond Control', specifically the song 'The Delicate Prey'. Lot's of subtle percussion instruments (chimes, bells, morraccos sp? or some kind of 'shakers') where the sound travels back and forth, and lot's of instruments to pinpoint. Very cool.

tcrossma

Early B. wrote: »

A couple of questions, though --

How large is your room?
How far are the speakers from the side walls?
Have you tried switching the left and right speakers?

The room is approx. 16 x 16 with 8' ceilings. The speakers are roughly 4' in from the side walls and I have experimented with anything from 6" to 3' out from the wall. Some of those adjustments made a little difference in imaging depending on where I was sitting but nothing has made a difference in soundstage width.

I have not tried swapping the left/right speakers. Easy thing to try so i'll give it a shot.

zeppelin2

I don't believe the LSi15 extend much laterally beyond the speakers to begin with! I suggest giving the following a shot, see if they make any improvements:

- try treating the first/second reflection points with a cushion or pillow
- place a small carpet between your listening position and the speakers to reduce floor reflections
- take the grills off the speakers

Also, try sitting at the apex of an equilateral triangle that makes up you and both speakers.

wizzy

dragon1952 wrote: »

... Spyro Gyra's 'Dreams Beyond Control', specifically the song 'Dreams Beyond Control' ...

Hmmm, don't see that song in the song list on that CD

pearsall001

tcrossma wrote: »

The room is approx. 16 x 16 with 8' ceilings. The speakers are roughly 4' in from the side walls and I have experimented with anything from 6" to 3' out from the wall. Some of those adjustments made a little difference in imaging depending on where I was sitting but nothing has made a difference in soundstage width.

I have not tried swapping the left/right speakers. Easy thing to try so i'll give it a shot.

You need some room treatments there my good man. That size room you have there (a square) is absolutely the worst for sound. The sound waves literaly have no where to go, they just keep bouncing all around & into themselves. Diffusion, absorption & bass traps will help emencely, but there really is no cure for a room with those dimensions. Any chance of moving to another room.

treitz3

tcrossma wrote: »

However, in 2-channel I find that the sound stage isn't very wide or deep. Vocals are centered perfectly but left/right sounds just seem to be anchored in the speakers themselves instead of extending out past the width of the speakers.

Amplification, harmonics and connections IME.

Oh, speakers and synergy as well.

AudioFilet

pearsall001 wrote: »

You need some room treatments there my good man. That size room you have there (a square) is absolutely the worst for sound.

I would second the room treatments suggestion. It made a world of difference with my setup. Just be careful though, or you could wind up with something like mine, take a look:

george daniel

Alot of good advice here,,having once owned a pair, I found that the 15's really shined with a high Current/power amplifier,placement is critical,once you hace taken care of that (things that you can control,source,pre,power) then it's time to start with the room treatment,probabaly the most overlooked ,But, a very important aspect,IMHO,experiment a little,and I think that you will find the sound that you are looking for.This 15's can be tough to dial in,but once you do,,,sweetness. Good luck,be patient and most of all have fun,,don't give up on them.

tcrossma

pearsall001 wrote: »

You need some room treatments there my good man. That size room you have there (a square) is absolutely the worst for sound. The sound waves literaly have no where to go, they just keep bouncing all around & into themselves. Diffusion, absorption & bass traps will help emencely, but there really is no cure for a room with those dimensions. Any chance of moving to another room.

Thanks for the suggestions. The room is actually more like 15x18 with two openings at the front of the room (left and right). There's lots of furniture, rugs, and pictures. I'll try and get a picture sometime today. Any additional room treatments are going to have to be of the "traditional" variety since this is our living room. No chance of moving rooms.

And, I do think the system sounds wonderful. Just not as wide or deep as I was hoping.

Thanks. tim

john22614

I found a significant improvement in stereo sound stage when I replaced my Yamaha RXV 630 with an Outlaw 990 pre. Granted, my Yamaha was lower quality than yours, but I suspect you would notice a similar result. Now the sound stage is wider, higher and deeper....plus, even though I was using it as a pre, the Yamaha also sounded flat and tiny in comparison to the Outlaw.

tcrossma

Here's some pics of my room. Thanks again for all the suggestions. I've experimented with placement as much as i'm able given the limited space I have to move things around, and not much changes in the sound. A little bit of imaging differences, but that's about it.

tcrossma

john22614 wrote: »

I found a significant improvement in stereo sound stage when I replaced my Yamaha RXV 630 with an Outlaw 990 pre. Granted, my Yamaha was lower quality than yours, but I suspect you would notice a similar result. Now the sound stage is wider, higher and deeper....plus, even though I was using it as a pre, the Yamaha also sounded flat and tiny in comparison to the Outlaw.

Thanks, it does seem to be a pretty common suggestion to replace my AVR with a dedicated pre. And that's going to happen, it's just a matter of time

McLoki

I would definately toe them in a little. (so they are pointed more directly at the main seating area rather than just in the general direction of it) Play with it a little and you may be surprised as the changes it makes.

Michael

treitz3

Along with toe-in, try swapping the L + R speakers and see if that opens it up a little.

tcrossma

I've experimented with toe-in and placement, nothing increases the width of the soundstage. I actually *did* swap the L/R speakers and it improved the bass response a fair bit. It was a bit thin before and now sounds markedly improved.

treitz3

Other than that and previously mentioned things to look for, I wouldn't know what to suggest for you. You have an acoustical challenge in your room because of the way it is laid out.

For me, the absolute biggest difference in the sound stage depth was switching to a tubed source. That is after most everything else to my system was addressed and tweaked and it was with my speakers, so please keep that in mind.

Have you thought about possibly changing the room around to where the TV and LSi's are against a solid wall with corners on each side, or is this option not an option?

tcrossma

It's not really an option to change the basic layout of the room. For all intents and purposes the room is configured just like we want. Even from a sound point of view I'm quite reasonably happy. But of course i'm always looking for ways to improve things.

From what i've gathered here I think what i'm going to do is keep tweeking my current equipment with some cable upgrades, power cords, and a few remaining IC's first. Then once all that is done replace my AVR with a good pre. I'm undecided yet if i'll go for a 2-channel with HT bypass to integrate into my existing setup or just go with a new pre/pro. That purchase is probably a few months down the road, however, so i've got some time to think it over.

Thanks for all the responses everyone, you've given me some things to shoot for.

wizzy

Did you try a little toe-out?

tcrossma

wizzy wrote: »

Did you try a little toe-out?

Yep. I pretty much tried all positioning tricks within the 2x2' area for each speaker that I have to play with. In/out from the wall, further apart, closer together, toe-in, toe-out, etc. Some of the positioning changed imaging a little bit, but not drastically. None of the positioning helped extended the sound beyond the width of the speakers.

wizzy

Wonder if it's due to the couch being so close to the wall. I know you can't move it.

Have you tried:

Experimenting with a chair in the center position, forward of the couch, just for funsies.

or

Hanging a couple big sound absorbing pieces of cloth behind the couch to absorb back wall reflections

wizzy

There is a poor-mans test version of the sound absorbing clothes. You can take those pillows and stand them up side by side on the back of the couch. You know, along the top so they cover some of the wall directly behind and above the couch.

Then when listening kind of slink down (butt near/hanging off the front edge of couch seat) so the top of your head is level with the top edge of the back of the couch.

Then, try a little toe-in.

phipiper10

Tubes will solve that problem. ---I'm kidding, kidding people! And if 200 watts wasn't mentioned I'll toss that out now too ..

Really though I'd just experiment with everything offered above.

dragon1952

wizzy wrote: »

Hmmm, don't see that song in the song list on that CD

Crap!...the song is 'The Delicate Prey' ... my bad :rolleyes: