Veneering my Monitor 10's

Boywonder

Well, I'm fully addicted to this vintage Polk stuff....:p In additon to my RTA-12's scored last month, I also picked up a pair of monitor 10's for $80 from Craigs List last week. The good news is that they were in great shape except for sticky vinyl, the bad news is that my girlfriend dropped one on the sidewalk on the way to the car, setting a new outdoor record for elapsed time owned until damaged-about 4 minutes.

I know, I know-in hindsight I probably should have put down my beer and helped her! Anyway, one rear corner got damaged, so all the more reason to lose the vinyl siding.

Like many others on this forum, I owned a pair of monitor 10B's back in the 80's and loved them, but sold them when I got into DIY speaker building. I also sold them because I was on an anti-fake-woodgrain campaign around my house in the late 80's which is still in effect today.

So, after verifying that the speakers still work properly (they do) and one listening session, I disassembled them for the re-veneering project. These speakers have SL-2000 tweeters, 6503 mid-woofs and the S/N stickers are on the upper rear corners of the cabinets (instead of on the terminal cups) with date stamps of 1989 on everything. The S/N stickers just say "monitor 10" on them, no "B" or anything and they were rosewood vinyl. I am hoping a monitor 10 expert can identify these as "B's" or series II, etc....

One other observation-these have way more polyfill stuffing in them then my RTA-12C's. One big piece rolled up and stuffed above the brace inside the cabinet behind the tweeter, and another 3-4" thick piece behind the PR in the lower cabinet. My RTA-12's have two sheets of 1" thick or so polyfill behind the PR with nothing around the brace or tweeters.

The first step in veneering was removing the vinyl, and this went easier than I thought it would. On one cabinet the vinyl practically jumped off, coming off easily in sheets and leaving the adhesive behind. My guess is that this cabinet was probably exposed to more sunlight than the other one. The other cabinet required some minor scraping and help from the heat gun. Using the heat gun just ahead of the part you are pulling up seemed to work the best, although too much heat and the vinyl melts. This method removed the adhesive with the vinyl, I think that there is a minor benefit to having the adhesive stay on the cabinets so less veneer glue will be needed later (the veneer glue will be less likely to soak into the particle board) Scraper control is important since you just want to lift the vinyl and not gouge the surface since any imperfections will telegraph through the veneer later.

I already like the look of raw particleboard over the rosewood vinyl...

Next, I cut the rear sides of the cabinet flush with the rear of the cabinet to clean up the damaged corner and used wood filler for a corner rebuild. I carefully raised the table saw blade with the cabinet against the saw fence to remove excess filler to make a hard, square corner. I also flush cut the rear sides with the back of the cabinet because I am contemplating veneering the back also.

The next issue to overcome is the beveled front cabinet edge, which would be somewhat difficult to veneer since there would be lots of veneer edges to deal with and no way to easily trim trim the veneer. I CAREFULLY removed this bevel with the table saw, and this was, by far, the most stressful part of the project. Remember, measure twice (or 4-5 times!) and cut once. See pics for the cabinets with and without the bevel. Since I am planning on using quarter sawn cherry veneer, I fabricated a beveled face frame out of cherry that will be glued in place after veneering. I used a 1/2" plywood spacer under the speaker baffle when cutting on the table saw to protect the grill fasteners form getting damaged.

I briefly contemplated rosewood veneer but at $6 a square foot I came to my senses, after all, these are monitor 10's! Cherry veneer is about $1.75 a square foot around here, and quarter sawn cherry is about $1.85/ft2. Between now and this weekend I may change my mind and go with zebrawood or some other exotic comp veneer. Many exotic veneers are available as "comp" veneer which is real wood with a "picture" of ebony, rosewood, etc imprinted on them for around $3/ft2. These are stainable, varnishable, etc. and look very much like the real deal.

I will post additional pics as this project progresses if anyone is interested. Veneering (and possibly finishing) hopefully will take place this coming weekend. I will probably upgrade the x-over and binding posts while they are apart also.

nms

Looks good! Me, I don't care how they look as long as they sound good!

You've got a lot of guts taking a table saw to your cabinets!!

geoff727

Boywonder,
This is EXACTLY what I want to do to my Monitor 5's and 10's. I was wondering when someone was going to write a reveneering post. Unfortunately, my woodworking knowledge is really poor. Do you know any good books/resources to point me at to learn how to reveneer my speakers?
Thanks.
And keep up the pictures! I'm really anxious to see how they turn out.

Boywonder

Search the web for veneering speakers...you'll get some hits. I'm not a veneering expert but I've done lots of woodworking and veneered a few things over the years.

Here is a link for a Klipsh heresy reveneering project (in zebrawood:p)

http://www.dcchomes.com/Heresy.html

Keep in mind that veneering is easier than it looks on paper (for the most part)

The two basic DIY methods of applying veneer are either with contact cement or PVA glue (think elmers or yellow wood glue). You can also use vacuum bags but that is beyond the scope of this project.

Gluing:

Contact cement comes two ways, the old fashioned stinky-highly flammable kind (my personal favorite) or the water based, no-fume safe kind. I believe that they are both OK for veneering, although some folks like the old-fasioned kind (probably because that's what they are used to).

Two popular brands come to mind: Weldwood red can=stinky, flammable old fashioned solvent based kind and green can=new, safe water-based kind, and 3M brand. If you use the red can YOU MUST USE THIS IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA-READ THE CAN. The stuff stinks like hell, and the fumes can be explosive if used in a confined space-keep this in mind near any pilot lights such as water heaters, etc.

With this method, you cut the veneer a little oversize, and apply a nice, even coat of contact cement to both the back of the veneer and the surface that you are sticking it to with a cheap paint brush (chips brushes are 50 cents at home depot and lowes) Foam brushes may dissolve if using the solvent based cement, although then again, they may not-I can't remember. Then LET THE GLUE DRY COMPLETELY. Once the contact cement is dry, it should be tacky but not lift up and get stringy when you press a finger onto it. Once it is dry, if it's not tacky, apply another THIN smooth coat, since the glue has absorbed into the substrate. Both surfaces need to be tacky, with FULLY dryed cement. You can literally stick the veneer for several hours after applying the cement, as long as the cement is still tacky. If you stick the veneer before the contact cement has dryed, you are asking for bubbles.

Once the cement is ready (FULLY DRY), there are two popular ways to get the veneer stuck: Line it up by eye and lightly lay it down on the suface starting at one long edge (with a little veneer overhang to trim later) with a pivoting, lay down motion. Once the veneer is laying on the surface, you then press the bejesus out of it starting in the center and working you way outward in all 4 directions usign either a roller, veneer scaper, or a wooden block, etc. PRESS/RUB HARD The trick here is to eliminate air bubbles under the veneer. If you get a bubble, you can make a small cut through the veneer with a fresh razor blade or utility knife, that will let the air out.

The other contact cement method is to use small wooden sticks (pencils, scrap wood, etc) spaced out and layed on the substrate, then place the veneer on the spacers Making sure it overhangs on all sides. Begin by pulling the spacers out starting at the center and squeeze the veneer down again working from the center out in all directions; keep removing spacers and pressing the veneer down hard on the substrate. The goal here is no bubbles with the veneer overhanging on all sides.

The downside of this method is that once the contact cement contacts itself, it is stuck for life, ie no repositioning.

All of my veneering to date has been with the above two methods; however I am planning on using PVA glue (yellow wood glue) for this project.

PVA glue method-Coat both surfaces with glue and let dry completely. If the dried glue surface is not tacky, reapply another coat and let dry completely. Lay the veneer over the substrate, overhanging on all sides. This method allows the surfaces to touch each other without sticking until you heat them up, allowing repositioning. Use an ordinary household iron and iron the veneer in place, starting at the center and working outward in all directions. The heat from the iron will re-melt the PVA glue sticking the veneer to the substrate.

The downside of the PVA glue method is burning the veneer with the iron, and your wife being pissed that you are using her iron in the garage.

Trimming

Veneer can be trimmed with a laminate trimmer router bit (my preferred method because I am a novice) or a sharp razor blade/utility knife. If using a knife, the sharper the better, change blades frequently. The router laminate trimmer works great on side grain, but can cause tearout on endgrain depending on veneer species. A little tearout can be fixed with wood filler (get wood filler in the same species as the veneer-wood filler brand name=famowood). The knife trimming method takes a steady hand and lots of patience, but that is how the experts do it. Along side grain the blade tends to wander with the grain of the veneer and the endgrain can be hard to cut (again, change blades frequently).

Finally, you need to pay attention to the sequence that you apply the veneer to each surface, so that the edges of the veneer are mostly hidden (most veneer is about .028" thick) Once trimmed, the edges are lightly sanded and beveled. You also want to continue the veneer grain around the cabinet, in effect "wrapping" the cabinet with veneer, so that the grain is continuous, so this means cutting each veneer panel sequentially out of the veneer stock.

I'll post additional pics as I progress.

strider

You've got my attention, Boywonder. Looking forward to your updates.

ben62670

You know you could have saved a bunch of time, and bought some Bose cubes:p

Face

Great thread! As for the Zebra finish.

Systems

ben62670 wrote: »

You know you could have saved a bunch of time, and bought some Bose cubes:p

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

McLoki

Great thread and I look forward to further updates.

I must say though, for the nickname of boywonder, you have some very feminine features in that first picture...

Welcome to club polk.

Michael

Boywonder

That's my girlfriend doing personal slave duty for dropping one of the speakers...

Face

Lol!

ben62670

Boywonder wrote: »

That my girlfriend doing personal slave duty for dropping one of the speakers...

Its good to let them out of the kitchen once in a while:D

geoff727

Boywonder,
Thanks for the info. I'm really looking forward to doing this on my Monitor 5's and 10's (after which my girlfriend will undoubtedly drop them!).

Boywonder

The project continues......I decided on quarter sawn sapele veneer instead of cherry, it was $1.75 ft2 at the hardwood store, similar in price to cherry. Looks similar to mahogany grain-wise. The first pic is some stain samples (unstained, mahogany minwax stain, and a mission cherry stain made by Micheal's furniture) I am going to spray these with several coats of clear laquer and a flat varnish before I make my final finish decision.

The next pics are of gluing a 1/4" MDF panel to the rear of the cabinet. This was installed for 2 reasons; to hide the damaged (and repaired) rear corner and to prevent the seams between the cabinet sides and the rear of the cabinet from telegraphing thru the veneer. I used contact cement and a J-roller to glue this; I scuffed up the rear back melemine with 100 grit sandpaper before applying the glue to give it some "tooth". Once I decided to veneer the back of the cabinet, there was no going back once I sanded the back of the cabinet. The 1/4" MDF panel was cut about 1" oversize with an undersized hole in the terminal cup location to allow trimming with a laminate trimmer bit after glueing. After applying, the seams end up on the sides of the cabinet but can be sanded flush so they will not show through the veneer.

If the cabinets had crisp corners all around, I probably would not have veneered the cabinet backs.

I also considered veneering the front baffles, but I could not come up with a way to sucessfully trim the veneer around the rabbets for the drivers. The rabbets are not deep enough to allow a laminate trimmer bit to operate. I would have also had to remove and replace the grill headlocks, which, so far have made it the the project intact. These headlocks appear to be a little smaller than the generic kind, does anyone know if these are available from Polk? (In case I break one....)

Next the veneer was cut 1" oversize and marked so that the grain would "wrap" around each cabinet. I did one cabinet with type 1 PVA glue (interior yellow wood glue) and one with type II (interior/exterior yellow wood glue) since I wanted to burn up glue I had in my garage cabinet. Both glues worked fine, although the type II glue had two advantages; it dried faster and did not cause the veneer to curl up when it is drying. I applied the glue to the veneer and the cabinets with a 3" foam brush and let dry completely. Then, it is a simple process to iron on the veneer, setting the iron to the highest setting and iron from the center working outward in all directions to prevent bubbles. The iron needs to move slow (mine did anyway) to heat the veneer sufficiently to get the veneer to stick. I had no problems with burning the veneer (I suppose that you could if you left the iron in one place too long) I could easily get the veneer too hot to touch with your finger after ironing, which was needed to get a good glue bond. On several pieces, after trimming the veneer the corners were not glued solid; this was fixed by applying a little glue under the corner of the veneer with a toothpick and re-ironing until stuck.

I did one side at a time, in the following order-back, bottom, sides, top. This order hides the rear veneer edges, puts the side edges the bottom, and the top edges on the sides for minimal visability of the veneer edges. After each veneer panel was ironed down, I trimmed with a router and laminate trimmer blade, then lightly sanded the end grain with 220 grit garnet paper rounding it over slightly and sanding only from the veneer face over the edge to prevent any tear-out of the end grain. I also lightly sanded the side grain to remove the sharp edge left by the trimmer bit. Before applying veneer to the next face, I also sanded the end grain of the veneer flush with the adjacent face (very minimal sanding required, the trimmer bit gets it within about .002" of flush).

The next steps are to re-make the beveled face frame sticks (I made a cherry set, but now I need sapele), miter, glue in place and sand flush. Then comes finishing, hopefully this coming weekend.

nms

Sapele is a very pretty wood - I worked at a custom cabinet making shop this summer and one of our big contracts had a lot of Sapele work. It looks very good lacquered, IMHO - the color becomes deeper and richer, but you may not like the shiny finish lacquer gives.

I think those are going to look very good when you're finished.

Boywonder

My present plan is to shoot several coats of clear lacquer follwed by a final coat of something satin or flat that I can wet sand and polish.

strider

Lasareath wrote: »

I found a site with tons of veneer, I just need to figure out which one to get

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/indextotal.htm

Sal

That guys got a great site with examples of exotic woods, I saw him going through E-bay stores.

This site's got a lot of choices and info as well.

They're really looking good, Boywonder.

bigyank

Looks great! I have a pair of Model 10's which I was going to veneer after stripping but ended up priming and painting. Do you have an actual list of the tools you used for ths project?

Yank

Boywonder

Check locally for a store that sells hardwoods, they will most likely carry veneer. It comes in 4' x8' sheets. At my local store, you can purchase full sheets, half sheets (4' x 4' or 2' x 8') or quarter sheets. It comes paper backed or wood-on-wood (wood backed) called WOW. Some of the exotics come 2' x 4' or 2' x 8'. I used paper backed; the WOW stuff may be slightly thicker. They also have some that are peel-n-stick adhesive backed. I do not know when you would use one or the other as I am a veneering novice.
Seeing it in person also allows you to cherry-pick pieces with sexy grain patterns, etc.

Tools:

Table saw or router and straightedge if you need to remove the front bevel on monitors. Table saw to also rip and bevel new mitered "face frame" in veneer species. I have an extra set of these sticks all ready to go in cherry (to fit monitor 10's) if anybody wants them, just pay shipping. They are slightly oversized (for sanding flush with the veneer after installing) and not corner mitered yet.

Removing the vinyl siding: bare hands, scraper, heat gun, fingernails

Cutting the veneer: straightedge, utility knife, extra new blades

Applying adhesive: foam brush for PVA glue method, cheap "chip" brush for contact cement method

Sticking the veneer: Household iron (use highest heat setting)

Trimming the veneer: router with flush cutting laminate trimmer bit (that's what I used without any issues on sidegrain and endgrain) Another option is a laminate trimmer, which is basically a small router just for this purpose (to trim veneer or formica), it is lighter and easier to manipulate than a router. Optionally you can trim with a straightedge and sharp utility knife or a veneer edge trimmer (small plastic angled tool that holds a blade) I recommed the router and laminate trimmer bit if you are a beginner, it's cake to trim. Trim some practice end-grain by routing in both directions with the router, one direction (moving the router across the end grain) may yeild a smoother cut with less tear-out than the opposite direction.

Applying the face frame: Miter saw to miter the corners, PVA glue and wide blue masking tape. I haven't done this yet, stay tuned.....

Sanding: 220 grit garnet paper on a sanding block (sand lightly, veneer is thin)

bigyank

Thanks! I have been watching veneering from the sidelines here and other sites like Audiokarma.org and always wanted to give it a try.

I stripped my 10's with only a heat gun (Wagner paint stripping model) and my barehands and other then every now and then a spot would be a little warm! Also, very interested in seeing some pics of the build and installation of the new pieces around the front baffle.

On your veneer selection, what thickness are you using?

I have not looked locally for veneer (not sure where you located but I have never seen any locally) but it must be around.

Another online site for veneers and tools is here:
http://www.joewoodworker.com/

Keep those pics coming, the job really looks great!

Yank

Boywonder

More progress last night-ripping, mitering and glueing the face frame.

Got one face frame glued last nite. I had to remake the sticks out of sapele since I went with quarter sawn sapele instead of quarter sawn cherry for the veneer. Each stick was ripped and beveled on the table saw and then the corners carefully mitered with each piece "dry fit" on the cabinet. I intentionally left the frame sticks slightly larger (probably around .005"-.010") than the cabinet for trimming flush with the laminate trimmer bit before a light sanding. The front face of the frame is also about .010" higher than the baffle mimicking the original geometry. Also notice I "back beveled" the rear bottom edge to assure that the frame will sit snug against the baffle and cabinet edge. This helps the joints that show to be very tight.

I cut the bevel on the strips to duplicate the original bevel on the cabinet, although I suppose you could leave a hard edge (no bevel) but hard edges on baffles sometimes cause issues with diffraction and/or other frequency response anomalies so every effort was made to duplicate the original geometry. My recently aquired RTA-12C's don't have beveled cabinet edges so perhaps these were more for styling than performance....Also, with the grills installed there are relatively huge edges around the baffle perimeter.

After a good dry fit (using blue masking tape to hold each piece-I dry fit the entire frame perimeter) I removed each stick one at a time, applied yellow PVA wood glue, and re-fitted using lots of blue masking tape pulled tight to clamp the sticks to the cabinet.

Tonites' plan is to install the remaining frame and flush trim the frame for staining and laquering this weekend.

Boywonder

The sapele veneer is .024" thick, I just measured a piece with my calipers.

bigyank

Nice job cutting those mitres!

Yank

markmarc

very nice work. I did a far less quality job some 25 years ago on mine using flexible oak veneer w/self adhesive backing.

ShinAce

Gorgeous!

Boywonder

The veneering project is almost done! Two weeks or so of rain in So. Cal. slowed things down a bit, but the project is moving again.

After about 15 coats of lacquer (approx 12 coats of gloss, followed by about 3 coats of satin), I let the lacquer dry for about 5 days before rubbing out the finish with automotive rubbing compound. I did not sand the finish with 600 grit paper or use polishing compound since I was not trying to get a high gloss, glass smooth surface, I only wanted to give the surface a smooth feel like a fine furniture finish.

Since the finish still shows the wood pores, it was a bit of a pain to get the compound out of the pores; this was done by using a toothbrush and paint thinner.

The finish is somewhat shinier than I hoped for, but it should dull down a little more over time. I have also located a source for dead flat lacquer, so that's probably what I'll use on the next project.

Since I veneered the backs of the cabinets, I had to re-drill the terminal cup holes in the 1/4" MDF I installed on the back, hopefully lining up with the old holes underneath. This was done by centering the terminal cup in the hole, using a square to get the screw pattern square, and using a transfer punch to mark the cabinet. See the pictures; it worked fine with no problems.

The crossovers were upgraded using Solens and gold metal hex binding posts from Madisound. I re-installed the SL-2000 tweeters just for a listening comparison between stock crossovers and upgraded crossovers, RD-0194's will be installed shortly.

NJPOLKER

Wonderful job to say the least. Just leave the SL-2000 in place, why would you want them to sound better after all that work?
Just alittle jab at the non-tweekers.
Thanks for the great pictures and detailed descriptions.
Drew

Face

Beautiful, nice job!

nms

Those look stunning! Great job!

Ricardo

Wow. What a beautiful job!!!

Congrats. You have the most beautiful pair of M10's, that's for sure.

geoff727

Now that's what a pair of 10's ought to look like! I'm really impressed by how the finished backs really add so more elegance to these speakers. What adhesive did you use to re-attach the serial number stickers?
Geoff