High sensitivity speakers: any negatives?

fatchowmein

I was curious what the trade-offs are with high sensitivity speakers (93+) compared to low sensitivity speakers.

VR3

93 is not very sensitive, IMO

But I guess I am spoiled working around 98-103 db 1w/1m speakers all day

There arent really any negatives that I can think of until you get into thats 96+ range - then they become very revealing to crappy electronics

phuz

Just make sure you say "no" when they ask: "Do these grilles make me look fat?"

Early B.

No tradeoffs, but sensitivity is only one aspect to consider. Two speakers rated at 90 dB may have very different power requirements to achieve optimal sound.

steveinaz

phuz wrote: »

Just make sure you say "no" when they ask: "Do these grilles make me look fat?"

hehe...good one.

tonyb

fatchowmein wrote: »

I was curious what the trade-offs are with high sensitivity speakers (93+) compared to low sensitivity speakers.

The trade off with high sensitive Speakers are that you blow alot of coin trying to grab some nice tubed mono blocks to power them,and all that toilet paper you will use after you crap your pants.

heiney9

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

93 is not very sensitive, IMO

But I guess I am spoiled working around 98-103 db 1w/1m speakers all day

There arent really any negatives that I can think of until you get into thats 96+ range - then they become very revealing to crappy electronics

So low sensitivity speakers are not very revealing of crappy electronics :rolleyes: In fact quite the opposite can be true. But I know you knew that already..........had to put it out there.:)

unc2701

The biggest trade off is that almost all high sensitivity speakers involve horns and horns come with some pretty nasty peaks and nulls.

The other trade off is that you're going to hear every single problem with your system, the recording studio's system, the guitarist's amp, the dirty volume knob on his guitar. Hell, you can _almost_ even hear the heroin he was shooting up the night before.

tubino

While there are some PATTERNS of downsides to high-eff speakers, there is so much variation that you might as well say the potential negatives are the same as with any speakers, just different likelihood for each, so you still have to look at specific examples. They MIGHT have freq response problems at either end, MIGHT be peaky and honky, MIGHT have crazy impedance curves, MIGHT be the size of refrigerators, MIGHT have low power handling or low max SPLs...

Or they might not.

For example, the round tractrix horns I've heard do NOT have the usual horn peakiness, and the wood ones didn't have metallic ringing... they have the flattest response, at the expense of some "throw" and efficiency, neither of which you need for home hi-fi, when you are starting with a compression driver... so forget the PA horns.

I'd say the usual compromise of getting efficiency, full freq response, and high SPLs involve size, or roll-off at 40hz, and expense/clunkiness. I'd say the usual drawback is that the first watt has to be really really good -- but that can be done.

A two-way using 15 or 18" JBLs in a big bass reflex box, with a high quality tractrix + compression for say 800 and up, can be very efficient, sound very good, have adequate freq. response and good dispersion.

The Tannoy DMT15 is a good off-the-shelf solution, not perfect, but manageable size and a good bunch of compromises IMO. Not the last word in either freq. extreme, but very listenable with a good amp, at 98db, and you don't have to baby it. It can handle a lot of power or deliver a lot of SPL.

tubino

Oh, I would agree that high-efficiency would start at something like 96 minimum, with 99 to 101 solidly high-efficiency.

I once got to use a tiny (~600 MILLIwatts) amp on a 108db system, and it did quite well even in a big room. The amp cost very little to build, but the speaker system, and everything else in the chain, was a lot of custom work and significant $.

HF efficiency (110db+) is easy with a compression driver and reasonably-sized horn, but it takes a lot of LF drivers to catch up. Sometimes I think 4 15" in a box would keep up fine with a single one in the Jensen cabinet... and the efficiency/response would be flatter up to the crossover point.

Early B.

unc2701 wrote: »

The other trade off is that you're going to hear every single problem with your system, the recording studio's system, the guitarist's amp, the dirty volume knob on his guitar. Hell, you can _almost_ even hear the heroin he was shooting up the night before.

The sensitivity of a speaker doesn't have anything to do with how revealing they are.

unc2701

Early B. wrote: »

The sensitivity of a speaker doesn't have anything to do with how revealing they are.

Many noise sources are fixed; High efficiency means less signal for same output, thus you can find yourself in the ugly part of the graph for S/N ratio with high efficiency speakers.

Or better yet, just go listen to some. And yes, blah, blah, blah, there are low efficiency systems that are revealing and can be had for cheap.

The bottom line is that if you take the exact same system and throw some 108db horns on it, you're gonna hear things you didn't know were there. A lot of the time it'll be local TV & radio stations.

tubino

unc2701 wrote: »

The bottom line is that if you take the exact same system and throw some 108db horns on it, you're gonna hear things you didn't know were there. A lot of the time it'll be local TV & radio stations.

That's been my experience. Super-efficient horns with unshielded wires to them (antenna) can indeed reveal the unknown!

Right now there is a pair of 101db Tannoy 215DMT speakers on ebay. They are 200 lbs and not small, but more monstrous speakers can be found all over. If I lived in driving distance of New Orleans, I'd be scheming...

heiney9

I guess I don't have to worry because I *hate* the way horns sound. Even if they were less efficient I'd still hate the way they sound. I abide by this simple creed: Garbage in, Garbage out, efficiency be damned, garbage is still garbage!!

mhardy6647

I guess I don't have to worry because I *hate* the way horns sound.

Discuss, please. Which horns? Whose horns? What music? Driven by what sort of electronics?

Ever heard Edgarhorn Titans? Altec Valencias? Backhorn-loaded Lowthers? I am curious as to what you don't like. (EDIT: Hint, FWIW, I like two of the preceeding very much, one... not-so-much). There are some truly awful sounding horns, and also some deeply flawed ones (the cast aluminum midrange trumpets in the earlier Klipsch Cornwalls spring to mind). Generally, horn-loaded speakers will produce the lowest distortion of any drivers (appropos of the GIGO comment).

Back to the thread topic: I am a big fan of high efficiency speakers (which are often but not exclusively horn loaded. One will generally benefit from increased "speed" -- WTF does that mean :-) -- and dynamics from HE systems, although one will generally lose low bass. In the modern world, though, subwoofers can fix that. Even Dr. Edgar went that route, with the Seismic Subwoofer for his Titans.

mhardy6647

Many noise sources are fixed; High efficiency means less signal for same output, thus you can find yourself in the ugly part of the graph for S/N ratio with high efficiency speakers.

Absolutely true for most solid state amps; much less likely for tube designs (except those with inadequate power supply filtering).

heiney9

Sorry not as well versed in horns and "vintage" gear as you are mhardy, I couldn't even tell you the horns. Some JBL, some Klipsch and some others. I'm sure somewhere out there is a horn I might like as is the case with anything someone dislikes, there are no absolutes (that really wasn't my point).

My main point which I made earlier is speaker sensitivity has little to do with how revealing a speaker is. It's one of many components that make up a loudspeaker.

This is a simple definition of sensitivity, no more no less.

In audio terms, sensitivity is the minimum amount of input signal required to drive a device to its rated output level.

tubino

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Generally, horn-loaded speakers will produce the lowest distortion of any drivers (appropos of the GIGO comment).

[snip]
One will generally benefit from increased "speed" -- WTF does that mean :-) -- and dynamics from HE systems, although one will generally lose low bass.

Hear hear. (is that a pun?) A good circular tractrix will exhibit little in the way of goofy waveforms or peaky response, so you CAN have your low distortion/high efficiency AND eat it too.

yes, generally lose low bass. My backloaded horns are about 7' long with 8 sq ft of horn mouth, which can be reinforced by floor or floor + wall. Even then it isn't even a proper quarter-wavelength for 30 hz -- but it does a remarkable job anyway into the 30s. But the box occupies 30 cubic feet, so they are generally... out of the question. Since mine are showing no signs of leaving, I'm going to put them on their sides as bottom of a two-way with an Edgarhorn on top. Even with a very efficient Altec 515E, I'll have a big efficiency gap with the top, so am likely to try bi-amping (845 and 45, maybe) with passive components way upstream. I could see using multi-tapped autoformers to match (attenuate) top to bottom.

unc2701

unc2701 wrote: »

Many noise sources are fixed; High efficiency means less signal for same output, thus you can find yourself in the ugly part of the graph for S/N ratio with high efficiency speakers.

I guess this just addresses the first part of my statement (HE reveals problems in your system)... as for the second part, mhardy nailed it. They're low moving mass, low distortion, and highly linear. For a given DB output, they're going to be a lot cleaner.

True, specs never capture the whole picture, but when you're comparing two speakers with a 6db difference, there's a whole slew of things that are usually gonna be true.

Face

tubino wrote: »

Right now there is a pair of 101db Tannoy 215DMT speakers on ebay. They are 200 lbs and not small, but more monstrous speakers can be found all over. If I lived in driving distance of New Orleans, I'd be scheming...

If they would fit in my listening room I'd be all over them too.

avguytx

I own 2 pairs of fairly efficient speakers...a pair of Klipsch Heresy's and Altec Lansing Milano's. No, they aren't as high end as some things out there by no means but they do sound nice on my little makeshift tube amp (Magnavox console amp re-done). The Heresy's are in my office that I listen to every day that I'm home and the Altec's are in a spare bedroom but don't see as much action. My SRS II's are in the living room which are nice to have in there by the way.

If I could have a big cool dedicated listening room, and had money to spend on some of those wild speakers, it would be fin to give them a try. But, for now, I'll have to stick with my "poor man's horns".

John in MA

I have no problem with horn speakers in general, but owning Heresys was not an experience I plan on repeating. Granted, I never tried them on high end tube amps or with a sub. But man were those things shriekers.

fatchowmein

So I'm guessing tube amp + high sensitivity speakers (perhaps horns) and solid state + low sensitivity speakers?

I'm also guessing hooking up a high sensitivity speaker to my 1971 Kenwood receiver with 40W/channel would probably sound bad?

Thanks for the responses.

Face

Solid state can sound good with high efficiency speakers.

SKsolutions

tubino wrote: »

Hear hear. (is that a pun?) A good circular tractrix will exhibit little in the way of goofy waveforms or peaky response, so you CAN have your low distortion/high efficiency AND eat it too.

yes, generally lose low bass. My backloaded horns are about 7' long with 8 sq ft of horn mouth, which can be reinforced by floor or floor + wall. Even then it isn't even a proper quarter-wavelength for 30 hz -- but it does a remarkable job anyway into the 30s. But the box occupies 30 cubic feet, so they are generally... out of the question. Since mine are showing no signs of leaving, I'm going to put them on their sides as bottom of a two-way with an Edgarhorn on top. Even with a very efficient Altec 515E, I'll have a big efficiency gap with the top, so am likely to try bi-amping (845 and 45, maybe) with passive components way upstream. I could see using multi-tapped autoformers to match (attenuate) top to bottom.

You could use an L-pad and when you have it dialed even, measure it and get a single value. You could attack it the other way, and measure SPL above and below the cross point to make sure you have the right value. The single value should retain more phase info than anything stepped. Good to see the big old stuff.

sucks2beme

I've heard Audio Note stuff. No horns there, just smooth goodness.
Downside; bring plenty of green to the table. I believe the reason
most better speakers aren't that efficient is it's easier to design
lower sensitivity speakers. You can use the x-over to to pad down
hot spots in the sound. Going the other way is much tougher.

treitz3

In my experience high efficiency speakers can sometimes have an audible buzz if the electrics<[many variables] aren't up to snuff but that noise is no longer audible with lower efficiency speakers on the exact same setup.

tubino

SKsolutions wrote: »

You could use an L-pad and when you have it dialed even, measure it and get a single value. You could attack it the other way, and measure SPL above and below the cross point to make sure you have the right value. The single value should retain more phase info than anything stepped. Good to see the big old stuff.

Yes, I could, and I probably will use an L-pad. It just rubs me the wrong way to build a crossover, and no matter how good the parts and smart the design and appropriate the integration, I'm still using resistance to throw away a lot of efficiency. For that and other reasons, I expect to bi-amp in the future, with an aim to optimize gain for the specific drivers.

I am curious though about phase problems introduced by an autoformer. I sure do like the intactaudio units for attenuation over a pot between source and power amp.

Yashu

As long as the design avoids "honk" (a weird resonance that sounds kindof throaty), horns sound awesome with some good tube gear.

I would rather have a single driver lowther or fostex horn-loaded speaker than a true set of horns, like those Klipsch or, like, avantgarde horns (though they look awsome).

The key is to get high efficiency, but with a natural high and low rolloff. Sometimes High efficiency tends to mean "bright".

I think the only other drawback would be not being able to turn your volume up more than an 1/8th, that is, if you are using an amp with any kind of power. That could be a good thing, though, if your amp is class AB. It would be running biased closer to A.

Tubes would probably sound good either way, super HE SET setups or big push pull designs.

tonyb

comparing Klipsch to Advantgarde horns is criminal,or useing them in the same sentence is just as bad.As with any higher end gear,what you mate it with becomes more important as you move up the food chain.Unless you get your ears on some nice horns driven with proper amps and source,kindly withhold judgement,as they can be some of the best musical notes you will ever hear.