The next stage "LP" thread!

madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
edited November 2002 in 2 Channel Audio
OK guys, I have the Michell table going and I have a small cleaning system not to mention 50+ lp's on the way. I pulled out the old Soundcraftsmen preamp but it doesn't have a phono input. Oh well. I knew this would be a long road. I just landed an AI modulus 3A for about a grand which is a tube preamp with a MC phono preamp built in. I read several reviews and it looked like the 3A was a better choice than the 3. This is a good deal because most 3A's are going for $1500+. Thanks for the advice rlw! Within the next week I'll be spinning vinyl!!!
Thanks!
madmax
Vinyl, the final frontier...

Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
Post edited by madmax on
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Comments

  • Paul ConnorPaul Connor Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    Just so you know, I spun the entire Physical Graffiti album yesterday and am still waiting for the swelling to go down.

    Can't wait for the result of your first listen. I cannot imagine that you will be dissapointed.
  • rlwrlw Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    madmax, I have an old Acoustic Research Corporation PH-2 phono stage. The only downside is that it has only balanced inputs and outputs. I have a phono cable that will work with your SME arm that has balanced connectors on the other side. If you want, you can borrow that for a while to save some scratch.

    Drop me a note.
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    Thanks for the offer. If the offer on the 3A goes away I might take you up on it. Oh yea, a mistake I made in my previous post was calling the phono input on the 3A a MC. I meant MM. I still get them mixed up.

    I bet the Phys Graf lp is awesome!

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    Should I remove the celaphane from the new lp's?
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • rlwrlw Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    Oops, sorry it took me so long to answer, I was busy tearing the cellophane off some new LPs. I also replaced the cheap paper innersleeves with rice-paper lined inners, and then put it all in a Mylar outer sleeve.

    I think you'll love the AI M3A.

    What LP's did you score?
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    I never thought about outer mylar sleeves. Where would you find those?

    The AI 3A is a go! Shipped out today. I read all the reviews and it sounds like I couldn't go too wrong. The stereophile review was the best. Something like "Is this the best preamp in the world? Maybe" but then the next month he thinks another one has the edge.

    As far as new lp's, I have been looking on ebay. Not a bad deal for most. The average including shipping seems to be about $8. The cheapest one was Bryan Adams which I won for 0.50 and it had free shipping.
    Others include:
    Police, Every breath
    Stones, under cover
    Pretenders, get close
    Roger Waters,
    Chuck Mangione,
    10CC
    First two Van halen
    Joan Jett

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • phuzphuz Posts: 2,413
    edited November 2002
    Mylar sleeves? Record stores of course! They do still exist. Most these days cater to the DJ industry, but they are a good source for extra sleeves and accessories.

    Depending on where you live, I'll bet there is a record store within 30 mins. of you - and if you are lucky there will be a REAL record store that sells all sorts of records, including older used stuff in good condition.

    Lots of new stuff still gets released on vinyl. Just find a record store in your area and you'll be set.
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    I found one store called "record and tape traders". They had thousands of CD's but only two bins of LP's and no tapes. I guess they traded them all for CD's :)
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • rlwrlw Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    Online: Red Trumpet, Elusive Disc, and I'm sure others...
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    The deal on the Audible Illusions preamp is set and it has been shipped!

    I found a place online that sells outer sleeves. Sleeve City is the name of it. Sounds pretty obvious to me.

    It wont be long now. I can't wait. I've suprised myself this time by being so patient!
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    I'm still waiting on the preamp.

    Will I have any problem with rumble or feedback if the table is set up properly? I am currently not using subs but I normally do and will be in the short future. My guess is that rumble happens if the table not isolated well and feedback happens if the LP is not clamped down?

    I remember getting both with the old table if the sub was on.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • rlwrlw Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    Rumble from the Michell? Nope.

    Acoustic feedback? Not if properly setup. What does that mean? Basically, you have to get the table placed on something pretty rigid - a Salamander "Flexy" rack won't work. From there, spend your time getting the bounce correct, and you shouldn't have a problem.

    Good news on the pre! You're going to end up with an incredibly sweet rig.
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    rlw,
    I got the pre-amp in. The Modulus 3A was an excellent suggestion. I like everything about it so far. Thanks!

    I set up the system and a few things stood out. I have not formed an opinion about the sound yet so I'll just throw a few things out there in no particular order.

    *I played several new lps and noticed a slight but annoying noise during very quiet passages and between songs. Picture an lp with nothing recorded on it and the needle just riding in the groove. The sound of the needle riding through the groove kind of swirls through the speakers, one at a time. This sound, since it is first on the left, then right, then left again is exagerated by the SDA effect of my speakers. THIS is the strange part: The God Save the Queen lp is the only one that doesn't do that. IS it because it was cleaned or treated with something??? Do I need to look at the anti skating control or other adjustment?

    *The SDA soundstage is full. Hoosier was having a problem with this on his. I tried a Janet Jackson lp which has excellent effects moving throughout the room. I own the CD as well and as far as soundstage and SDA effect they are absolutely the same.

    *I played an older lp which I had played several times on my old system with out cleaning or taking good care of it and it was still very quiet. An even older somewhat scratchy looking lp was horible though.

    *I don't know what is up with these tube electronics. When I set up my first tube amp I turned it on and after about 15 seconds the fuse blew. After that it was fine. Later I hooked up a different amp for the first time. Same thing. Then my mono blocks, same thing. Now after using them for 6 months I insert the new preamp and the same thing happened again. It seems whenever I change something the fuse blows then all is fine. (this applys to all the tube amps I have) Weird.

    *The lps lack a noise that the CD's have. Often when something switches from one channel to the other it does not seem as smooth as a CD because this "noise" is not there to cover things up. This quietness took awhile to get used to.

    *The sound coming from the lp sounds as if it is more mechanical than that from the CD. (I don't know what I mean by this yet)

    *The very lowest electronicly generated sub bass (10hz?) which is only recorded on a few CD's I have is not as strong from the lp as it is from the CD but is very smooth and nice.

    Just my first thoughts after listening to approximately 5 lps.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,055
    edited November 2002
    madmax,

    Interesting read, keep it coming.

    If I remember correctly you are in Frederick, right? Did you try the Record & Tape Traders in Towson? I seem to recall a larger vinyl selection at that store. Also, try Joe's Record Paradise at 1300 East Gude Dr. Rockville, phone # 301.315.2235. They have a large selection of used LP's. There is Olsson's Records, closest one is 7647 Old Georgetown Rd. Bethesda, phone # 301.652.3336. There are more if you're interested. On a side note (for rlw), they all acknowledge that "redbook LP" is a accepted term for standard vinyl.

    Cheers,
    F1nut
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    Thanks F1nut,
    I tried Record and Tape traders in Fredneck but they only had a few. I'll look into the others. I hate heading South from here but for some records it might be worth the hassle.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    One more thing on the LP system. At one time rlw mentioned some sort of kit for hanging a turntable from the ceiling. I think I may need to do that for the short term because I still have it on a glass shelf which is probably a bad thing. Oh yea, it is sitting right in the middle between the speakers which should promote feedback but I'm having no problem with that. I think the big heavy platter with a well designed clamping device solves a LOT of problems.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • Paul ConnorPaul Connor Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    Hey Max,

    Glad to hear you are up and running. Sounds like you are off to a good start.

    Im not sure what you are hearing, but I suspect it is surface noise from the lp. I have noticed even on new vinyl that there can be more or less depending on the record. I have no idea of why that would be. Perhaps rlw can shed some light on it. I don't think, however that it is feedback you are hearing. My Rega sits between the sda's on a less than desirable stand and even at higher volumes, I cannot detect any feedback. With that said, my old Marantz would produce feedback even at moderate volume.

    Keep us posted and buy a copy of Red Headed Stranger by Willie Nelson. It is the record I use to compare acoustic music.

    Paul
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    Paul,
    The swirling sound is not feedback, it's just a very small noise. I think maybe something could be adjusted better. I only brought up feedback because of where I have the table placed. My old one would have been howling there.

    When you play something it is not totally silent before the song starts or between songs is it? That is the sound I'm talking about. It just seems it should be more continuous on both speakers rather than shifting from side to side like it is.

    I'll pick up Red headed stranger when I see it.
    Thanks,
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • Paul ConnorPaul Connor Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    It is never totally silent when starting an album or between songs. I have always considered that part of the package. My guess would be that it is just sound produced from the friction on the smooth surface. It seems to go away once the song begins. I don't know if you ever get away from it, but the weight on the tonearm could affect it.

    Paul
  • Paul ConnorPaul Connor Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    By he way, what are you listening to tonight?
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,055
    edited November 2002
    madmax,

    Fredneck!?! Waaaaaaaaah, I like that and I know what you mean. It's not too different around here. I've got friends up your way, as a matter of fact, I had dinner in Fredneck last night.
    Joe's place is a easy shot off of 270, you shouldn't find traffic too bad. Also, there is a place called Old Glory Antiques in Frederick that has somebody in there selling vinyl, could be worth a look.

    F1nut
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    The God Save the Queen lp that rlw sent to me is totally quiet at the beginning and between songs. That is why I'm wondering what is up with it. Maybe he ran it through a cleaning process or maybe it was treated in some way. In either case I want to find out why. Tonight I didn't get home in time to listen to anything. If I don't get started by 8:30 I dont play anything. The neighbors never say anything but I know sometimes they hear it. It seems I keep bumping up the volume even when I start out low. I just can't seem to keep it low so I have a habit of shutting down at 9:00 no matter what. We have space between the houses but if you are between 20 and 50 feet away there is a resonance thing that happens which makes it seem like things are louder than they really are. For example, my neighbors across the street are 70 feet away. They have parties and everyone brings their amplified instruments and drums. No problem, but people walking down the street 30 feet away talking in a normal voice... you can hear every word. F1, do you know what exit?
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,055
    edited November 2002
    Directions:

    270 south to Shady Grove Rd. Turn left at the end of ramp on to Shady Grove. Turn right on Gaither Rd. Left on Redland. Right on Frederick Rd. (Rt.355) and left on Gude Dr. Joe's is about 1 mile on the left in a strip mall, next to a bank.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    Hey,
    That's 5 min away from my part time job! Thanks!!!
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 45,055
    edited November 2002
    Welcome...:)
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • rlwrlw Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    Woo-hoo! You're spinning!

    Nothing special about GSTQ- wasn't that one still sealed?

    I think you're hearing some surface noise. You can probably come pretty close to eliminating it at all but silly volume levels; that's going to take a combination of careful [read: anal] setup and cleaning.

    A few things come to mind about your basic setup to double and triple check just for kicks.

    (1) Level - are you positive the table is level? You have realized that every time you adjust a suspension spring, the level of the sub-chassis and platter changes, right?

    (2) The bounce - how many hours have you spent getting the bounce just right? It really should go straight up and down, with no lateral motion. If you keep a standard spirit level on the platter while you bounce, that bubble should not move from side to side. There should be no "jello" wobble. Is the tonearm cable impeding the bounce? Are you using the stock SME cable? Can you position your table so that the lead hangs straight down over the edge, and doesn't hit the shelf you have the table on?

    (3) VTA - double checked? Is the GSTQ LP thinner than the others you've tried? Could the GoldRing be that sensitive to VTA?

    (4) Glass shelf - might not be the best, b/c glass does resonate a lot. That might be affecting things.

    The record side of things: Warp. Off-centered-ness. This can be hard to see, but most records are somewhat off center. Grossly off-centered records will exhibit wow-and-flutter when played on anything but the old Nak auto-centering table. This could explain the ping-pong effect of the noise.

    I know it sounds weird, but watch a noisy record as it plays. Get your face right up there next to the table, and look all round, and see if you can find anything that correlates with the noise. Does the arm move a certain way during those passages? Can you see it hitting a warp/moving side to side?

    Does the noise increase/decrease as you get closer to the center of the LP?

    What about changing the tracking force/anti-skate? I usually start at the upper end of the manufacturer recommendations...but try backing things off, or even going a tenth of a gram heavier.

    Believe it or not, I get the quietest results when I get the bounce just right, and get the right kind of rack under the table. Those two factors seem to ice out that cyclical noise. As a guess from your comments about the "mechanical" sound, I think you might want to play around with this some more. The Michell should be able to play without any cyclical noise to speak of.

    EDIT: reread your post, and the comment about the bass response fits with the suspension tweaking. The bass from the table should be very good.

    How did the C&C LP sound with SDA?
  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited November 2002
    I'm really enjoying reading this thread! Sounds like a lot of fun.

    Thanks

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    rlw,
    I'm printing out your response and will follow through it one by one. I have to get a "spirit bubble". I'm guessing that is one of those that is round and you center the bubble.
    Thanks!
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    Originally posted by rlw
    Woo-hoo! You're spinning!

    (3) VTA - double checked? Is the GSTQ LP thinner than the others you've tried? Could the GoldRing be that sensitive to VTA?

    How did the C&C LP sound with SDA?


    You have me wondering about the VTA. The following is from a review of the cartridge:

    "2) The cartridge is a little more than usual sensitive to VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) adjustments (for a Moving Magnet Cartridge), so experimentation is on order. "

    Could it be THAT critical?




    The C&C lp is nice. I only did a quick listen so far. I was more into trying several different lps rather than really listening to one at the time.

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited November 2002
    Another update. The swirling sounds from side to side were a function of the spring settings. I lowered the front of the platter assembly so it bounced more smoothly and the swirling sounds went away. Now the platter bounces nicely but is not level. Should I compensate for level using the feet on the bottom of the plinth? This would make the plinth not be level. Im so confused...
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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