Stereo Subs?

AudioFilet
AudioFilet Posts: 235
edited November 2007 in 2 Channel Audio
First real post here.

I thought I might ask you guys for some opinions on something I want to try.

I have a set of LSi9 speakers, and I am thinking about pairing them up with a set of identical Sony subwoofers. This would be done by using my Outlaw Audio ICBM connected to the pre-outs of of my Outlaw RR 2150. The output of the ICBM can be configured for stereo, so the left & right sub outputs would be correct for each channel. It can also be configured for mono.

Anybody have any experience with a setup like this, or have any thoughts?
2 Channel rig:
LSi9"s (modified xover's) & HSU Sub
Harman Kardon HK 990 Amp
Onkyo C-S5VL SACD
Music Hall MMF 5.1
Furman Elite 15

HT rig:
HK AVR-745 & Polk Monitor Series
Post edited by AudioFilet on
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Comments

  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,644
    edited November 2007
    Stereo subs ROCK!

    Anytime you can correctly position a bass guitar with force in another room (outside the listening area due to soundstaging) you are cooking with grease!

    Its the only way to get totally unlocalized bass, with the clarity, tone, texture, and deepness possible with music...

    Only a few have heard it and I highly* recomend it...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2007
    The only thing better than stereo subs are speakers that play low enough that you don't need subs.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,644
    edited November 2007
    Even then

    You gotta have subs...

    Subwoofers are where its at...

    Only speakers I have EVER heard that 100% do NOT need a subwoofer....

    And I can list them on one hand ---

    Wilson Audio X1
    JM Lab Grande Utopia
    And maybe, just maybe the 1.2TL -- for the majority of music...

    Granted, I want to know if I need it - I can reproduce 20-20 with no issues...

    YMMV
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2007
    Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »
    Even then

    You gotta have subs...

    Subwoofers are where its at...

    Only speakers I have EVER heard that 100% do NOT need a subwoofer....

    And I can list them on one hand ---

    Wilson Audio X1
    JM Lab Grande Utopia
    And maybe, just maybe the 1.2TL -- for the majority of music...

    Granted, I want to know if I need it - I can reproduce 20-20 with no issues...

    YMMV
    For home theater I agree, but not for 2 ch. stereo. I've never heard any of those speakers, but I'm sure my 15" Tannoys aren't far behind them.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited November 2007
    I didn't always feel this way, but I sure do now. Stereo subs can REALLY enhance just about any listening experience. In a lot of listening rooms (spare bedrooms, dens, home offices), the room is far from optimal. Sometimes the setup of the two main speakers in the best imaging position, doesn't always equate to the best bass position, and vice versa.

    This is where stereo subs can REALLY shine, even if crossed over VERY low. You can place your speakers for the best image and soundstage, and place yours subs for the fastest, most articulate bass response. Hey - if you get lucky and get the optimum placement on your speakers alone - kudos, and more power to you - but in my experience, it's not the 'norm'.

    You're on the right track Filet de' Audio, only problem that jumps out is the Sony part of the subwoofer equation. There is a greater chance than zero they lean toward the boomy, one-noteish side of bass - and probably aren't fast enough to match the bass and midbass speed of the LSi9's.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,644
    edited November 2007
    I looked in the Showcase, looks like the Tannoys use 15" woofers --

    Which to me might as well be considered a type of bass driver...

    But I'm assuming it does mids as well...

    I pretty much can't stand large main speakers (wide) -- and I hate side firing big woofers, and I dislike even more multiple small front firing woofers... its counter productive to me...

    I like very narrow baffle, and small midbass drivers ---

    If I were to go 2 ch, no subs --

    It'd definitely be with a system with around 8 midbass drivers - 4 per tower... solid to about 30hz...

    Fast transiets, dynamics, and still have the bass authority to blow your mind... all while remaining clear...

    And I would still have a subwoofer in the mix, probally crossed around 30hz or so to fill in those very last octaves...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited November 2007
    Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »
    I looked in the Showcase, looks like the Tannoys use 15" woofers --

    Which to me might as well be considered a type of bass driver...

    But I'm assuming it does mids as well...
    Correct, the crossover is at 1.1k I believe.
    and I hate side firing big woofers
    At least we can agree on something. :D
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • jm1
    jm1 Posts: 618
    edited November 2007
    Face wrote:
    The only thing better than stereo subs are speakers that play low enough that you don't need subs.

    The main objective is to realize full range sound. There are various methods of implementing this objective. You can use single cabinet full range speakers or separate cabinet speakers dedicated to certain frequency range. A separate cabinet systems requires more setup and configuration, but that does not imply it will not be as good or better. The end result is what really counts.
    RuSsMaN wrote:
    I didn't always feel this way, but I sure do now. Stereo subs can REALLY enhance just about any listening experience. In a lot of listening rooms (spare bedrooms, dens, home offices), the room is far from optimal. Sometimes the setup of the two main speakers in the best imaging position, doesn't always equate to the best bass position, and vice versa.

    This is where stereo subs can REALLY shine, even if crossed over VERY low. You can place your speakers for the best image and soundstage, and place yours subs for the fastest, most articulate bass response. Hey - if you get lucky and get the optimum placement on your speakers alone - kudos, and more power to you - but in my experience, it's not the 'norm'.

    Well said.

    I would add that the hardest part of using subs for music is finding one to use in your system. Most subs on the market I wouldn't use for HT. Fewer could be used for music.
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident.
    Arthur Schopenhauer
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  • AudioFilet
    AudioFilet Posts: 235
    edited November 2007
    So, any suggestions as to a good sub for music??
    2 Channel rig:
    LSi9"s (modified xover's) & HSU Sub
    Harman Kardon HK 990 Amp
    Onkyo C-S5VL SACD
    Music Hall MMF 5.1
    Furman Elite 15

    HT rig:
    HK AVR-745 & Polk Monitor Series
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited November 2007
    AudioFilet wrote: »
    So, any suggestions as to a good sub for music??

    Hsu.

    What's your budget?
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,644
    edited November 2007
    VLA_Rosewood.jpg

    Two of those ---

    Two Crown XTi4000 and you will be good to roll! ;)

    I kid...

    Yep, whats your budget?
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • AudioFilet
    AudioFilet Posts: 235
    edited November 2007
    Maybe $2000?

    I was kind of looking at some of the tube subs from SVS?
    2 Channel rig:
    LSi9"s (modified xover's) & HSU Sub
    Harman Kardon HK 990 Amp
    Onkyo C-S5VL SACD
    Music Hall MMF 5.1
    Furman Elite 15

    HT rig:
    HK AVR-745 & Polk Monitor Series
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited November 2007
    Actually, Polk has almost a dozen new subwoofers that can fit just about any application, at a lot of different pricepoints. Just to throw one out, a pair of DSW500's would be great for your application.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited November 2007
    For two G's, I'd get two of these:

    http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/CaliberOverview.html
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,644
    edited November 2007
    Is it strictly music?

    If so - you can do alot better for the money for music...

    VMPS is definitely one --- the Dedicated subs, or their Original Subs -- and a nice solid amp with a Paradigm X30

    And as Russ pointed out, Polk has come out with an array of awesome subs

    I definitely wouldnt recomend SVS for music first -- not by a long shot..

    I'd say...

    REL, Martin Logan, VMPS, ACI, HSU, Then SVS for music...

    Lots of options out there for 2k
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • AudioFilet
    AudioFilet Posts: 235
    edited November 2007
    This would be strictly a 2 channel music system. I love the RR 2150, but will probably upgrade that eventually.

    The Caliber subs look like good ones.
    2 Channel rig:
    LSi9"s (modified xover's) & HSU Sub
    Harman Kardon HK 990 Amp
    Onkyo C-S5VL SACD
    Music Hall MMF 5.1
    Furman Elite 15

    HT rig:
    HK AVR-745 & Polk Monitor Series
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,644
    edited November 2007
    I've never heard Epik --

    But I can't imagine them being that great for music, but for HT I sure can ---

    If you plan on spending 2k -- you have sooo many options, you want something low compliance and fast -- not a SPL machine...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited November 2007
    Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »
    I've never heard Epik --

    But I can't imagine them being that great for music, but for HT I sure can ---

    If you plan on spending 2k -- you have sooo many options, you want something low compliance and fast -- not a SPL machine...


    It's really the quality of the amp that matters most. So I'll amend my suggestion by saying that I'd switch out the BASH amp on the Epik subs or order a passive one.

    I like 15" subs for music. Lots of square inch, little movement, so it's hardly working. Plus, 15 inchers should provide a huge soundstage and a nice foundation for the music to rest upon.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • AudioFilet
    AudioFilet Posts: 235
    edited November 2007
    A lot of choices, yes. I have heard a lot of good things about the HSU subs.

    The new Polks look good too, but I already have one of the Sony's. It's a newer moder, SA-W3800 (have not hooked it up yet). If I like the sound of that one, I can get another one and see how that works. If I don't like it, I can hook those up to the HT system and get something else.

    I'm open to suggestions though.
    2 Channel rig:
    LSi9"s (modified xover's) & HSU Sub
    Harman Kardon HK 990 Amp
    Onkyo C-S5VL SACD
    Music Hall MMF 5.1
    Furman Elite 15

    HT rig:
    HK AVR-745 & Polk Monitor Series
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  • AudioFilet
    AudioFilet Posts: 235
    edited November 2007
    Why would the SVS subs not be good for music??
    2 Channel rig:
    LSi9"s (modified xover's) & HSU Sub
    Harman Kardon HK 990 Amp
    Onkyo C-S5VL SACD
    Music Hall MMF 5.1
    Furman Elite 15

    HT rig:
    HK AVR-745 & Polk Monitor Series
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited November 2007
    AudioFilet wrote: »
    Why would the SVS subs not be good for music??

    Amps are so-so, IMO, which makes them a bit boomy (that's great for HT). For music, you want bass with finesse.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited November 2007
    Almost anything but the Sonys. I tried the little Sony "giant killer" from a few years back (SA-WM40). It was horrible, even with the recommended tweeks. Fortunately I was able to unload it to someone else who believed the hype that it was a huge bargain.

    I think the SVS would be fine. I've heard them in a couple of realy nice 2 channel rigs and they were excellent. One was with LSis and the other with some Maggies. I tend to like a sealed (acoustic suspension) sub in a 2 channel rig. I think they are tighter. REL comes to mind but they are a little over your price range.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • jm1
    jm1 Posts: 618
    edited November 2007
    AudioFilet wrote: »
    Why would the SVS subs not be good for music??

    I have two of the original SVS PC-Ultras in my system; they are excellent for music. I can not comment on any of the other SVS subs as I have not heard any of them.
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident.
    Arthur Schopenhauer
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  • cstpeter
    cstpeter Posts: 387
    edited November 2007
    Martin Logan subs are very well regarded for music. There are two used Martin Logan Depth subs on Audiogon that would run $1700 for the pair (more than half off MSRP).

    http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1198786980

    http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1200372994
    Von Schweikert VR4-jr
    Valve Audio Predator
    Denon DVD-2900
    PS Audio Digital Link III w/Cullen Level IV Mods
    Pro-Ject Xpression w/Blue Point No. 2
    Graham Slee Special Edition 2
    PS Audio UPC-200
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