Sub gone! LSI9 in small room omg

ctrulock

Yes, I have determined that my psw404 is basically useless and detrimental. In my small room (12x14-8 foot ceilings) it really only wrecks the sound stage and imaging. Am I going to miss 5hz (maybe even +/-3dB) lower? NO. LSI9's rock! Love em. Anyone else use LSI9's as stand alone 2 ch. music rig?

michael_w

Congrats on the find. Give it a couple weeks and try to integrate the sub again... you may have changed your mind. That said, I've been sub-less with my lsi9's for about 7 months and haven't looked back since. My room is even tinier than yours (8x13 with 8foot ceilings) and they fill the room with no problems. Having a small listening room has its advantages at times.

VR3

The key is getting a REAL sub!

I have my subs crossed over 55hz, and my mains at 50hz...

Treitz will tell you you can't find my subs when the music is playing...

And my room is smaller than both of yours! 10.5x10.5x8

The key is Stereo subs!

But the LSi9 does have tremendous bass response, but you are still missing those very last octaves...

heiney9

ctrulock wrote: »

Yes, I have determined that my psw404 is basically useless and detrimental. In my small room (12x14-8 foot ceilings) it really only wrecks the sound stage and imaging. Am I going to miss 5hz (maybe even +/-3dB) lower? NO. LSI9's rock! Love em. Anyone else use LSI9's as stand alone 2 ch. music rig?

Used to have 9's on stands in a 2-ch set-up. Loved 'em they are awesome speakers and you don't need a sub.

I now have SDA 1C's and they are at a whole other level.

Enjoy

H9

john22614

I played my 9's for about a year or so without a sub and thought they were great. Room size is about 12x18 with a high vaulted sealing and a couple of large openings to other rooms. Then I got the PSW1000 and it added a whole new octive to music....very noticeable, even at low volumes, and I'm really glad I got it. I would expect the same thing to happen even in a smaller room.....but, if you get a sub, make it a good one with tight musical tones. Either way, you should be fine, but I definetly prefer including a good sub. A lot of people rave about what they do for movies, but don't under estimate what they do for music, even at moderate volumes.

treitz3

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Treitz will tell you you can't find my subs when the music is playing...

What subs?

Music Joe

LSi9 with a lower frequency spec of 38hz (in room?) coupled to a sub with the lowest x-over setting of 60hz probably 'won't mate great'.
Something that can let those 9's go all the way down then augment it maybe at 30-35hz would integrate better..................but sub integration w/o causing the troubles of which you speak is expensive.
With an in room in the 30's your getting most of what's recorded any-hoo

ctrulock

Yes if I did upgrade my system my next purchase would be a killer musical sub. Looking around 800$ -1k range i guess. I am sorry but my yammy rx-797 drives these things fine (ps to all you lsi9-receiver haters). This receiver puts out more then specs say IMO. Anyways what music goes below 35hz anyways lol-Bach pipe organs? Just kidding I would like a nice low end responce because I love prog rock. Right now, I am listenoing to ELP (for the youngins-emerson lake and palmer) and I would wager some of thier stuff hits below 30 hz. Sounds great though. Go Gators!

disneyjoe7

I for one can't stand a sub with my music. But maybe 2 subs are needed or 1 sub centered as 1 sub off the side doesn't sound right.

ctrulock

I agree. On one song it might sound good, but on the next track everything is wrecked. I think 2 subs would be good if you have the patients to dial them in. I was looking at the svs subs seems lke good value for the money. I dont know I might just be happy for now lol!

VR3

Eh....

All these statements coming from people that have only heard one sub plugged up...

Even a subwoofer in the middle cant truly reproduce stereo bass...

Imagine... a bass guitar that actually extends as far as your main speakers do...

Treitz heard it, one song -- literally the bass guitar extends beyond the walls of my room, no lag restricting it within the staging

There is no re-dialing for different genres of music, it plays what it plays...

rock, rap, jazz, blues -- it clouds nothing

Stereo Subs, Low Crossover point, and dialing it in with well recorded music is the way to go...

disneyjoe7

^^ For those who feel they need a Sub woofer(s) for bass, need to buy "Real Speakers"

VR3

When you say "real" speakers....

Do you perhaps mean speakers that have built in woofers?

Or SDA type speakers --- which by no means capture true bass by any means..

I am a huge fan for midbasses, but have yet to hear any midbass based speaker that can pull off that very last octave...

The 1.2TL included....

YMMV of course ----

Yashu

I am in the "sub is not for 2 channel" camp. It's not two channel if you have a bunch of the sound coming from some other location besides the two main speakers. I have never heard a sub system that was as integrated as a good full range tower.

The 9s are great speakers... do not mess them up by trying to put a sub in the chain. You are going to drive yourself mad trying to find a proper crossover point, sub locations that make it sound like part of the mains.

VR3

I'd be interesting to know if you have actually heard two subwoofers paired together with the mains...

Literally directly behind them - ran together, crossed together, matched together....

Its not as hard as you are making it - it just requires you to go stereo...

Now if you are going to try to blend LFE subs, you might as well give up from day one..

It is IMPOSSIBLE to blend a mono signal based subwoofer, regardless if you have two LFE subs - you are just duplicating a mono signal...

I know I'm just repeating myself - but its like anything else...

Its annoying to listen to people badger things they've never tried, never experienced, and refuse to due to a bad experience...

But I guess thats the way it goes....

Yashu

There are only a couple ways to try and get a sub properly setup, one is to run your speakers through the sub's crossover so they have the appropriate high pass and the lows are sent properly to the sub, the other way is to hook the sub up directly to a pre out, but then you are trying to use the sub's crossover to match the natural decay of your mains. This is usually not possible. The 3rd way is to have an external active or passive crossover to handle this... similar to running through the sub's crossover, but usually it is of higher quality (like vandersteen's external box).

My point is, the way that most people are able to do it is the 2nd way, which is to connect the sub to a pre out. You are NEVER going to get the sub to match the falloff of your mains this way. If you run your speakers through the sub's crossover, you are putting, yet another link in the chain that can alter the sound quality. While this way would probably sound better than using a pre out, it certainly isn't perfect... but, money matters on that one. The better the sub, the better the sub's crossover components.

There is another way, which is something that usually wouldn't be done, which is to connect the sub to a pre out 2, and also to put a passive adjustable crossover between pre out 1 and main in 1, and then adjust both crossovers to match each other. This is a good compromise, but there aren't that many good adjustable passive crossovers. This is the way I would do it though, but then you have 2 crossovers to try and match. This is going to take a ton of work and a good SPL meter. The mains need to be high passed with some kind of control.

I am speaking strictly 2 channel, not HT... That is why I have not included LFE as an option here.

Setting up a sub for 2channel listening is maddening, and to me, it is almost futile, since the most "pure" way to hook it up, (connecting sub to pre out), you are never going to get the sub's crossover to match the natural rolloff of your mains. A sub's crossover is usually a very specific adjustable curve, but where your mains natural rolloff is usually NOT bound by a simple equasion. If you are not able to roll off the lows of your mains to EXACTLY match the sub's crossover, you are going to have all kinds of humps and valleys in your bass response, coupled with room modes from having to place the subs at different locations than your mains, and things spiral out of control very fast.

Subs are wonderful for HT, but I just don't see how they could be preferred over full range towers for 2 channel music, not that it can't be done, I just don't see why someone would want to do it.

There is also the issue of the music itself. A large percentage of music is mastered in a way that does not take into account sub bass, so sometimes you never know what you are getting. In my experience, music sounds much better without sub bass, because when you add a good sub, you are going to hear things that even the recording engineers may have missed. Trying to keep a flat freq. response to 20hz and below, seems to make the music sound more artificial and less natural to me... Vinyl people probably already know this.

VR3

I run my stuff through a Paradigm X30 -- which I've heard them with and without and noticed absolutely no difference in sound in anyway...

Speakers are crossed at 50hz, the subs are crossed at 20hz and 55hz....

One subwoofer is in phase, the other is out of phase

The volume is set to match up --- with stereo subs, the two subs are not producing the same signal, so there are no real cancelation issues and it actually smooths out the response...

Like I said, if you close your eyes in my setup, you wont be able to tell one bit that there is a subwoofer anywhere....

Besides, to me a subwoofer blended right for well recorded music, kind of gives you an idea of how everything is supposed to sound...

I don't believe in manipulating the sound to make it sound the way I want - I want it to sound how the recording engineer wanted it to...

So if the recording engineer wanted excess of bass, I want to be able to produce that...

But if you are ever in the area, you are more than welcome to listen --- I think you will change your opinion...

PS: I cross my subs over with my Crown XTi1000 -- I can define the slope I use for it and so forth --- allowed me to further integrate it to where I like it...

Yashu

Well you chose the "right" way to do it anyhow... you are crossing over both sub and mains to match... that is the only way to do it right... and it's either run the mains through the sub, or use an external crossover, which you have done.

The external crossover is the only way to really do it "the audiophile" way.

ctrulock

Or just enjoy the lsi 9's woth out one. LOL, I think I can live with the lsi 9's low end responce. I am getting down to 30 hz with good db.

VR3

Im glad you are happy - I really am...

But you would have to live in a closet to get 30hz bass response out of the LSi9...

The -3db point with the LSi9 is 50hz...

As per Polks website...

Overall Frequency Response 38Hz - 27kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 50Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 26kHz

So even at best case, you are getting 30hz at -10db... which is a significant

I'm glad you are happy and like the bass performance...

According to the website, the PSW404 is flat to 32hz -3db...

Which should be a SIGNIFICANT difference

Try - if possible, putting the PSW404 in the center of the frontstage, crossed at 50hz - which is the LSi9's natural roll off point...

You should notice a huge difference

the problem with using a subwoofer for music in a 2 ch setting when you use a mono signal is you get a feeling of where its at. You can always locate it, because its producing two signals on one side -- it would be like putting a 3rd speaker in the mix that produces full R&L signal...

I know you are happy, as I said -- I am glad you like it... but just want to make sure that you may possibly be missing some things...

I've heard the LSi9 - the midbass response of the LSi9 is PHENOMINAL, enough to make you forget about a subwoofer, but it does indeed miss alot of frequencies that are there and are being used...

Yashu

You may not like what you hear/feel down there... like I said... it seems like a good portion of my albums, they were mastered on nearfield monitors, or smaller control monitors, meaning, there is a lot of "junk" down in the sub bass area. I will say that music certainly sounds DIFFERENT with a real sub in place... I am not going to say, you will think it is better or worse, but there is definitely a difference. Some people here, obviously love to have real bass, I am on the other side of the fense, and would probably be very happy with the 9s by themselves. No way is "better", it is all about personal preference. I am going to say that the 9s probably don't get too many db at 30hz, but there is probably enough for your brain to fill in the rest. Sub bass, is the kind you can feel, not just hear.

ctrulock

Prolly right. Thanks for the info. I think I prefer the faux 30hz bass of stand alone lsi9's. Maybe in a year or so I will buy a nice sub maybe a svs or someting to kind of change things up. But righ now I could not be happier!

SKsolutions

Had the 9's in a small room and was pleased. Moved them and me to a bigger place, and they sound much more "complete". I play real music with real instruments without a sub. The commercial stuff, that's over-processed/mastered, gets blended with a HSU, and it's party time.

I'm still amazed at how well they do in the bass region and the rest is sweet as pie.

Enjoy em.

cfrizz

Wow SK, very nice! Lets see both speakers in the picture.

Yashu

Yeah commercial stuff is mastered horribly, to us anyway... they compress the mix and they turn up the midbass to make the songs "thump" on any type of system. Using a fake sub like bose, it will sound "normal", use a real sub and it is unlistenable.

However, I was speaking more on non RIAA music... this music too, is hit or miss in the bass area. I used headphones to preview the music to find out if it would sound ok with the sub or not when I had one. I sold the sub, and have never missed it. The bass output of my PSB towers is plenty, with a very usable 40hz but dropping fast below that. I am sure I get some db at 30hz, but that is pushing it. My bookshelves, much like the towers, there is enough there for my brain to fill in the rest... and I don't have to disturb the neighbors. The best time to listen to music is late at night on the weekend. The electricity is cleaner then, and it is so quiet around the apartment. I prefer nearfield listening, so when you have most any speaker close enough to you, there is a full sound.

TroyD

In a small room like mine, I thought that the LSi9's were fantastic without a sub.

BDT

heiney9

TroyD wrote: »

In a small room like mine, I thought that the LSi9's were fantastic without a sub.

BDT

+1 here. When I had mine 9's the bass was phenominal. Before making the purchase I was really worried about a smallish speaker loading the room and I was very pleasantly surprised.

H9

Yashu

With proper amplification, I can easily see the 9s sounding better than the 15s... without the side firing woofer, placement would be pretty straight forward, and they probably image better. I have not heard 9s and 15s side by side, but I would think having all the drivers facing your listening position would be the right way to go, and the 9s offer that.

Smaller rooms definately deserve the consideration of the 9s over something larger.

Music Joe

you can trade off some image depth and place them closer to the front wall to gain more low end response.

x2 on the side firing comments...I've had the JBL L-7,NHT 2.5i and AR-1.
(the more recent carver powered tower not the classic)
All where near impossible for me to dial in a good low end top/end balance.They needed some room to breathe.

Yashu

I feel like, although it is weird that these bookshelves need as much, or more, floor space and room to breathe, that the fact the sound is coming from a smaller point source, makes for a more coherent sound.

Music Joe

Small cabinet panels flex less probably helps too. A 'more driver less cabinet' sound.