Teflon and Polystyrene Capacitors In SDA Speakers.
Comments
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The effect will depend on where it is in the circuit the lower ESR cap is installed.If it is in a shunt position(parrallel to the voice coil)and the capacatance value is the same then it should be insignificant.But if you replace a cap that is in series with a tweeter with a much lower ESR part then you may well find the tweeter is running a fraction of a db or more on the hot side.
OTOH, If the speaker crossover was tuned to account for high ESR
capacitors, then replacing with a low ESR part could cause an change
away from the optimum that the speaker designer had in mind.Testing
Testing
Testing -
I can almost hear Matt BEGGING for a Hovland back then, since Hovland was THE cap of that day.
I think it is a prudent idea when replacing caps in 20 year old speakers to admit the old caps are bad.
That is almost a given, especially with electrolytic.
So, why not replace caps with the exact same brand and type, and LISTEN first to get a baseline ?
This will allow you to hear what the designers intended.
Then, if you want, replace with different caps, and listen again.
Far too often, I have just thrown Solens/Bennics in there, and had it sound better.
But upon replacing the "better" caps with the new, stock ones, had it sound even better still.
I'll agree to that in part...with the sole exception of the electrolytics...they were only used for cost savings period. They were cheap and met the capacitance needs...they were not put in there for any other reason. A poly in place of that electrolytic of the same capacitance isnt going to deviate from the said design sound enough to make a huge (Slight but better would be my description ) differance...as long as the two were functioning correctly.
Where you will see the real benefit is after 20 years those electrolytics have more then likely broken down to the point of actually changing the design functionality...thats where the real benefit comes from.....with the added plus of knowing the new caps actually sound better with an audio signal. Even when I have installed poly caps into brand new crossover designs with fresh electrolytics in them ...they sound better. And I dont claim to have a golden set of ears either....but that is noticeable to even me.The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club -
I can read from the quoted posts that the knucklehead is passing out more bad advice, ignore it.
Teflon or Polystyrene caps, used as bypass caps (their values are too small for any other purpose in a crossover) are not a good thing. They are too fast and result in artifacts, which can be best described as an artificial "air" in the high frequencies. At first it sounds kinda neat, but one soon realizes that the same effect is present in every song, in any type of music, meaning that it's not natural and it's not something that one hears in live music.
As for the rest....Pffft!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Yes, and perhaps that 1/4 DB can make the sound more "transparent", EH ?The effect will depend on where it is in the circuit the lower ESR cap is installed.If it is in a shunt position(parrallel to the voice coil)and the capacatance value is the same then it should be insignificant.But if you replace a cap that is in series with a tweeter with a much lower ESR part then you may well find the tweeter is running a fraction of a db or more on the hot side.
Great point GV 27, and one B&W flat warned me about.
They also said something about ESR slightly altering the crossover filters slope, effecting Q of the circuit too.
What is your opinion about first starting with the same type/brand of caps first to establish a baseline,, then going from there ? -
True, Teflon and Polystrene caps are not easy to find in large values.I can read from the quoted posts that the knucklehead is passing out more bad advice, ignore it.
Teflon or Polystyrene caps, used as bypass caps (their values are too small for any other purpose in a crossover) are not a good thing. They are too fast and result in artifacts, which can be best described as an artificial "air" in the high frequencies. At first it sounds kinda neat, but one soon realizes that the same effect is present in every song, in any type of music, meaning that it's not natural and it's not something that one hears in live music.
As for the rest....Pffft!
Solution ?
Parallel a bunch of them.
Lower ESR too
http://www.justradios.com/METcapacitors.html -
"Too Fast" ???I can read from the quoted posts that the knucklehead is passing out more bad advice, ignore it.
Teflon or Polystyrene caps, used as bypass caps (their values are too small for any other purpose in a crossover) are not a good thing. They are too fast and result in artifacts, which can be best described as an artificial "air" in the high frequencies. At first it sounds kinda neat, but one soon realizes that the same effect is present in every song, in any type of music, meaning that it's not natural and it's not something that one hears in live music.
As for the rest....Pffft!
Tell Spectral their amplifiers are "too fast".
Tell Nelson Pass his amp is too fast, his slew rate too high ?
Teflon and Polystrene caps are good capacitors.
Having low ESR and fast speed is a good thing, as long as the circuit likes it. -
shadowsofnight wrote: »I'll agree to that in part...with the sole exception of the electrolytics...they were only used for cost savings period. They were cheap and met the capacitance needs...they were not put in there for any other reason. A poly in place of that electrolytic of the same capacitance isnt going to deviate from the said design sound enough to make a huge (Slight but better would be my description ) difference...as long as the two were functioning correctly.
Where you will see the real benefit is after 20 years those electrolytics have more then likely broken down to the point of actually changing the design functionality...that's where the real benefit comes from.....with the added plus of knowing the new caps actually sound better with an audio signal. Even when I have installed poly caps into brand new crossover designs with fresh electrolytics in them ...they sound better. And I dont claim to have a golden set of ears either....but that is noticeable to even me.
My experience differs from yours.
I would say it is about 50/50 for me replacing good electrolytics with new Polys.
It's all good.
As an electrolytic cap ages, it looses capacitance.
In a two way design, this effects the crossover, shifting it upwards.
Many times, this creates a mellow sound. -
"Too Fast" ???
Hey guys, I learned how to google...
On by-pass caps:
"Differing values of capacitor charge and discharge in different times. The two different values are said to have different time constants. The small bypass capacitor charges and discharges faster than the larger value cap, thus it affects the higher frequency sounds. The effect of this is the render the highs brighter since they have been stretched over the two different time constants. While these bright highs may help sell equipment in the dealer's showroom, it is detrimental to imaging and the enjoyment of your music."_________________________________________________
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SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
He called DK out and he went back and edited his post to make it look like he was just matter-of-fact inquiring. That was the reason for my post, not to persecute the guy.
If he had just made the statement without trying to discredit DK none of this controversy would exist. But he keeps lobing them up there people are going to keep smacking them out of the park.
H9
Owe you an apology bubba, this individual does have some issues. Now if you'll pass the bread plate, I'll finish this warm crow....LOLSource: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
Tell Polk that ,, since they use Mylar bypass sometimes on Electrolytics.Hey guys, I learned how to Google...
On by-pass caps:
"Differing values of capacitor charge and discharge in different times. The two different values are said to have different time constants. The small bypass capacitor charges and discharges faster than the larger value cap, thus it affects the higher frequency sounds. The effect of this is the render the highs brighter since they have been stretched over the two different time constants. While these bright highs may help sell equipment in the dealer's showroom, it is detrimental to imaging and the enjoyment of your music."
Besides, Polystyrene caps are available in 2uf sizes, and can easily be parallelled for even more capacitance. -
Dead Thread Alert!!!
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Here is a great thread to read with opinions pro and con about messing with crossover caps http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1050144226&openflup&4&4#4
For anyone reading this thread, I would suggest visiting as many forums as possible, and getting some other opinions besides mine, and the ones expressed in this thread. -
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Why is that smiley face smacking the drunk dog with a baton?Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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Here is a great thread to read with opinions pro and con about messing with crossover caps http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1050144226&openflup&4&4#4
For anyone reading this thread, I would suggest visiting as many forums as possible, and getting some other opinions besides mine, and the ones expressed in this thread.
I've said it once and I'll say it again. That's TOO much time spent on figuring out what replacement caps to use. Put some friggin good caps in, call it good and go buy some friggin CD's or LP's. Sheesh...Richard? Who's your favorite Little Rascal? Alfalfa? Or is it........................Spanky?.................................Sinner. -
For anyone reading this thread, I would suggest visiting as many forums as possible, and getting some other opinions besides mine, and the ones expressed in this thread.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA The only one taking you seriously is a guy named ABX! Where has he been BTW? -
If your "main" cap is high quality (Poly, Teflon, what not), why even bother with a bypass?Monitor 7b's front
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Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
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Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek: -
I think it is a prudent idea when replacing caps in 20 year old speakers to admit the old caps are bad.
That is almost a given, especially with electrolytic.
So, why not replace caps with the exact same brand and type, and LISTEN first to get a baseline ?
What makes you think the same cap of the same value from the same manufacturer (assuming you would even know) would sound exactly the same as it did 20+ years ago. That is a big ASSUMPTION.
The plain and simple fact you keep overlooking, which BTW came for number 1's own mouth, is that they didn't use expensive (and for the time) exotic caps because it wasn't cost effective and the supply wasn't enough for large runs of speakers.
He didn't say that electrolytic were used specifically because of the x-over design. Hell, most of the caps I've seen in vintage Polks barely have any markings let alone where they came from. They were mass produced parts and I would bet that in many instances they weren't all sourced from the same vendor over the lifetime of the speaker.
Using your logic they would have to re-engineer the crossover everytime they changed the source of their parts.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
If your "main" cap is high quality (Poly, Teflon, what not), why even bother with a bypass?
Exactly! It's not needed. Polk used silver mica's to bypass the electro's, which is a good idea. It's a cheap way to make a less than cap sound better.
Why isn't that ABX, the dog, that's getting smacked? Yeah, thought so.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Why is that smiley face smacking the drunk dog with a baton?
Thanks, Russ! First time I laughed all day. Summed up the whole frckin thread. -
Does he need to spend more time with his lonely hearts club instead of posting here?
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No way the women keep having him thrown in jail for domestic violence!:D
