B&W/Proceed HT - ? and need to update
Zaxon
Posts: 4
Hello to everyone my first post stumbled upon this site googling you never know where google will take you.;)
Ok to give you my list of equipment: Proceed AVP DSP, B&W 802 (front left and right) B&W 805 (center channel and rear right and left), Llano Design 300 watt 2 channel (class A) and a Llano Design 200 watt 3 channel (class A), Genesis 900 SW, (IIRC model 900) and a PS3 60 gb (4 days old) for BR and all the other formats that are coming out that I don't have a clue about. Jenving speaker wire and interconnects (from Sweden) and a Pioneer Plasma 60" I just bought last week.
I really like everything as it is this is really a very musical setup whether two channel or DTS-Audio and it is really amazing for HT very immersive and I have always enjoyed it and so does everyone else.
Reading up on the current formats and technologies reminds me what I went through when I originally put this system together. My dilemma is the limitations of the Proceed AVP - it does all of the basic two channel and DD and DTS 5.1 extremely well, but times are a changin and it only processes composite or S-Video - not pretty on the Pioneer Plasma and of course no HDMI or support for the new Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA etc. The Pioneer has four HDMI inputs and IIRC one component. The AVP has one (only one toslink dig input), one AES/EBU balanced digital input, four S/PDIF (on RCA) digital inputs, and one S/PDIF (on BNC) digital input.
So here is what I was thinking of using two give me more audio options via toslink:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=180-980
1)I could then run the HDMI (for video only) direct from the PS3 to the Pio Plasma and then I could run the toslink from the PS3 to Digital Optical Selector Switch and then into the toslink input in the Proceed AVP.
2) Same as #1 for the Dish HD DVR that has HDMI or Component out.
The next step is which HD DVD player? If it has a coaxial digital out I could actually use one of the RCA digital inputs and use a different source on the other AVP video/source buttons or I could use the last toslink input on the $20 Digital Optical Selector Switch that I linked.
I know this Digital Optical Selector Switch is kind of a clunky solution, but for the short term if it works it would at least get me DD and DTS 5.1 I realize going through the AVP I can never utilize some of the new sound formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA etc. and I would like to know if these two formats are really amazing improvement over regular DD and DTS 5.1? The amount of detail that I hear at present is fantastic so I really have to believe that this has to be one of those diminishing returns situations, am I wrong?
Couple other points....
I have a XBOX360 and the cheapest way to get into HD DVD would be to buy their add-on player, but since it is not uniform in width and depth it would have to be on top of other components, it seems to be an afterthought for MS, so this wouldn't be my first choice. Suggestions for other HD DVD players?
If the new surround formats are really alot better then that brings me to the eventual need for a new pre/processor as I really wouldn't be interested in a receiver because I really like the Llanos. I know Outlaw makes the 990, but if I'm going to make the change I would like HDMI rather than DVI and Outlaw says it will be around 6 months before that will be out and I don't know if the Outlaw would be a letdown coming from the Proceed. Comments on the Outlaw and/or another recommendation?
Last point for now I'm not sure I remember correctly, but bitstream would allow the raw info to pass for example from the PS3 and the decoding would take place in the AVP, correct? Whereas with PCM the decoding is done at the source (PS3) correct?
Wheew! Thanks for your comments and patience.
Ok to give you my list of equipment: Proceed AVP DSP, B&W 802 (front left and right) B&W 805 (center channel and rear right and left), Llano Design 300 watt 2 channel (class A) and a Llano Design 200 watt 3 channel (class A), Genesis 900 SW, (IIRC model 900) and a PS3 60 gb (4 days old) for BR and all the other formats that are coming out that I don't have a clue about. Jenving speaker wire and interconnects (from Sweden) and a Pioneer Plasma 60" I just bought last week.
I really like everything as it is this is really a very musical setup whether two channel or DTS-Audio and it is really amazing for HT very immersive and I have always enjoyed it and so does everyone else.
Reading up on the current formats and technologies reminds me what I went through when I originally put this system together. My dilemma is the limitations of the Proceed AVP - it does all of the basic two channel and DD and DTS 5.1 extremely well, but times are a changin and it only processes composite or S-Video - not pretty on the Pioneer Plasma and of course no HDMI or support for the new Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MA etc. The Pioneer has four HDMI inputs and IIRC one component. The AVP has one (only one toslink dig input), one AES/EBU balanced digital input, four S/PDIF (on RCA) digital inputs, and one S/PDIF (on BNC) digital input.
So here is what I was thinking of using two give me more audio options via toslink:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=180-980
1)I could then run the HDMI (for video only) direct from the PS3 to the Pio Plasma and then I could run the toslink from the PS3 to Digital Optical Selector Switch and then into the toslink input in the Proceed AVP.
2) Same as #1 for the Dish HD DVR that has HDMI or Component out.
The next step is which HD DVD player? If it has a coaxial digital out I could actually use one of the RCA digital inputs and use a different source on the other AVP video/source buttons or I could use the last toslink input on the $20 Digital Optical Selector Switch that I linked.
I know this Digital Optical Selector Switch is kind of a clunky solution, but for the short term if it works it would at least get me DD and DTS 5.1 I realize going through the AVP I can never utilize some of the new sound formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA etc. and I would like to know if these two formats are really amazing improvement over regular DD and DTS 5.1? The amount of detail that I hear at present is fantastic so I really have to believe that this has to be one of those diminishing returns situations, am I wrong?
Couple other points....
I have a XBOX360 and the cheapest way to get into HD DVD would be to buy their add-on player, but since it is not uniform in width and depth it would have to be on top of other components, it seems to be an afterthought for MS, so this wouldn't be my first choice. Suggestions for other HD DVD players?
If the new surround formats are really alot better then that brings me to the eventual need for a new pre/processor as I really wouldn't be interested in a receiver because I really like the Llanos. I know Outlaw makes the 990, but if I'm going to make the change I would like HDMI rather than DVI and Outlaw says it will be around 6 months before that will be out and I don't know if the Outlaw would be a letdown coming from the Proceed. Comments on the Outlaw and/or another recommendation?
Last point for now I'm not sure I remember correctly, but bitstream would allow the raw info to pass for example from the PS3 and the decoding would take place in the AVP, correct? Whereas with PCM the decoding is done at the source (PS3) correct?
Wheew! Thanks for your comments and patience.
Post edited by Zaxon on
Comments
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If you are going to to the optical switch. Get this same one for less then half the price. I used it for along and never had a problem with it.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10423&cs_id=1042302&p_id=2946&seq=1&format=2My Home Theater (WIP):
Panasonic AE900 Projector - 126" screen, XBOX 360, Pioneer BDP-320 Bluray
Receiver: Denon AVR-1905
Fronts: RTi6's, Center: CSi5, Surrounds: RTi4, Rears: Denon
Dual Subs: PSW202, and behind the couch Denon 8"
My showcase link:
Media Room pics -
If you don't want to wait for Outlaw, check this out. http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?class=Separates&m=DTC-9.8&p=i"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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This would work well for you also. Sonics should work well with your B&W speakers but you may find it a little vieled. (I would test it first, and be prepaired to return it)
MichaelMains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms) -
66chevyIISS,66chevyIISS wrote: »If you are going to to the optical switch. Get this same one for less then half the price. I used it for along and never had a problem with it.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10423&cs_id=1042302&p_id=2946&seq=1&format=2
I appreciate the link I thought the other site had a good price, thankyou. -
Face,If you don't want to wait for Outlaw, check this out. http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?class=Separates&m=DTC-9.8&p=i
I did a search of the Integra 9.8 that you linked and there seems to be many who are pleased with this pre/pro, do you have this unit yourself?
Just a general question are the 7.1 formats DTS HD-MA and Dolby True HD really a substantial improvement over DD and DTS 5.1? I hear a tremendous amount of detail in my current system its hard to believe that it can be that much better. -
No, I don't have it yet. Saving up for one now though."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Hi Zaxon,
Welcome. Before you think about upgrading your pre/pro, you will have to decide how much 2 channel music you listen to, and how important it is to you. Most pre/pro's today are built for every THX and surround format, video switching, multi-zones, etc... with 2 channel sound quality on the backburner, because that is a shrinking market.
You have some very good equipment and your 802's are world class speakers. You will definetly not want to put inferior quality gear in the mix, the B&W's will let you know it too well. If you do not use a seperate 2 channel pre-amp, then your pre/pro will be the control center of your system, and needs to be up to snuff.
The only pre/pro I know of that can be excellent for 2 channel and HT, and has an HDMI add on piece coming out soon is the Cary Cinema 11 and its add on. Your Proceed, was made by Mark Levinson, and is highly regarded. The AVP2, is almost identical to the Levinson 40 and is one the leading pre/pros for music and HT, even at its age. Check out this link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=707173&highlight=Best+Sounding+Pre
I used the Toslink switcher you are looking at and it was fine. I used it for a PS2 and a dvd player. I would suggest keeping your audio and video seperate for now. Run your video into your tv as you are doing and get the switchbox for 5.1. This will keep all your sound performance at top quality.
It would be nice to have a one box fits all solution, but I still cannot find one yet. At least, not for what I want to pay.
Venom -
Welcome. Glad to see another Proceed user. (AVP-S & AMP5 for HT)Michael
In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
NORTH of 60° -
Hi Venom. I'm sorry for my late reply it has been difficult to get back to post. You bring up a good point on how much do I listen to two channel and the reality is it is very small amount of time. I remember when I initially put my system together and I would go to the 2 channel shops with their one chair set in the sweet spot with the speakers perfectly positioned and I would set there with my eyes closed listening to discs that I knew well and then an IC or speaker cable would be changed and I would listen more to see how the change affected the sound. In reality, since then I almost never do this, I have friends over we enjoy music around dinner, and conversation. If I said, "lets all close our eyes and listen to how these speakers image." First of all they wouldn't know what imaging is and second they would probably all chip in to pay for my first session with a counselor. OTOH, if I put in a movie everyone enjoys the movie and when they hear the door creek that is so real coming from the right rear from Twister that it makes them look and they say wow that sounds real then fun can be had for everyone.Hi Zaxon,
Welcome. Before you think about upgrading your pre/pro, you will have to decide how much 2 channel music you listen to, and how important it is to you.
I have an opportunity sometime in the next two weeks to go listen to the Integra 9.8 and I have to admit that I am skeptical that it will sound better for movies as the guy has a PS3 and if I understand correctly it can't decode DolbyTrueHD and the other lossless formats, so can he bitstream from the PS3 to the Integra 9.8 and will it decode then it should, but I don't know if the PS3 can bitstream these new formats either. If so, its the cart before the horse having these new pre/pros with no sources that can pass bitstream or actually decode the movies with these lossless formats. Can anyone clarify this?You have some very good equipment and your 802's are world class speakers. You will definetly not want to put inferior quality gear in the mix, the B&W's will let you know it too well. If you do not use a seperate 2 channel pre-amp, then your pre/pro will be the control center of your system, and needs to be up to snuff.
As far as two channel I really have a hard time believing that the new pre/pros will sound more musical than the Proceed, I don't mind if I am proven wrong, but I am highly doubtful on this one.
Venom what did I ever do to you that you linked me to a 100+ page thread? (laughing) It's very interesting that the OP had over 20 different preamps - that's what I call commitment and obsession, but hey the guy has a lot of good info and its nice to know the Proceed stands up so well. From your link I looked into Cary and I sure it will sound nice, but there two box solution would be either $6k or $6.5k, again I don't think musically it would be superior to the Proceed, so an option I am thinking about is the Integra 9.8 or Onkyo Pro 885 (since they're the same basically) for movies and keeping the Proceed for music and if the new stuff is actually better then I'm fine with selling the Proceed.The only pre/pro I know of that can be excellent for 2 channel and HT, and has an HDMI add on piece coming out soon is the Cary Cinema 11 and its add on. Your Proceed, was made by Mark Levinson, and is highly regarded. The AVP2, is almost identical to the Levinson 40 and is one the leading pre/pros for music and HT, even at its age. Check out this link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=707173&highlight=Best+Sounding+Pre
I
Good to know the switcher works as it looks like the Integra and Onkyo are backordered till close to the first of the year and this would be a cheap short term solution. Just an FYI the BR disc Casino Royale has a lossless 5.1 track which I choose through the menu setup I watched the movie for 15 minutes or so and thought something just doesnt sound right so I put my ear right up the center channel and nothing was coming out, changed it back to DD 5.1 and it played fine and since I am using a PS3 and it doesnt seem to have an update to decode these lossless tracks I'll have to wait and see what it would do when and if Sony makes the update.used the Toslink switcher you are looking at and it was fine. I used it for a PS2 and a dvd player. I would suggest keeping your audio and video seperate for now. Run your video into your tv as you are doing and get the switchbox for 5.1. This will keep all your sound performance at top quality.
It would be nice to have a one box fits all solution, but I still cannot find one yet. At least, not for what I want to pay.
Venom
Gotta run sorry for the typos etc. don't have time to proof. -
n .......Hi Venom. I'm sorry for my late reply it has been difficult to get back to post. You bring up a good point on how much do I listen to two channel and the reality is it is very small amount of time. I remember when I initially put my system together and I would go to the 2 channel shops with their one chair set in the sweet spot with the speakers perfectly positioned and I would set there with my eyes closed listening to discs that I knew well and then an IC or speaker cable would be changed and I would listen more to see how the change affected the sound. In reality, since then I almost never do this, I have friends over we enjoy music around dinner, and conversation. If I said, "lets all close our eyes and listen to how these speakers image." First of all they wouldn't know what imaging is and second they would probably all chip in to pay for my first session with a counselor. OTOH, if I put in a movie everyone enjoys the movie and when they hear the door creek that is so real coming from the right rear from Twister that it makes them look and they say wow that sounds real then fun can be had for everyone.
Hi Zax,
I understand quite well. But at the same time if you told them how much you paid for the system is the first place they will commit you to a room with 4 nice nice, soft white walls. While family and friends movie night is fun, I find 2 channel for myself alone. The system is for me dammit!
I have an opportunity sometime in the next two weeks to go listen to the Integra 9.8 and I have to admit that I am skeptical that it will sound better for movies as the guy has a PS3 and if I understand correctly it can't decode DolbyTrueHD and the other lossless formats, so can he bitstream from the PS3 to the Integra 9.8 and will it decode then it should, but I don't know if the PS3 can bitstream these new formats either. If so, its the cart before the horse having these new pre/pros with no sources that can pass bitstream or actually decode the movies with these lossless formats. Can anyone clarify this?
I am not sure in the new formats as they are changing too quickly, and I really could care less. I find 5.1 for movies good enough. One day the newer formats will be standard and we all will have them, but for me, I will not let that get in the way of 2 channel as I do it often enough. I think the PS3 has the new formats but not certain. I have not yet heard anyway say the new formats blow away DD/DTS and are a must have.
As far as two channel I really have a hard time believing that the new pre/pros will sound more musical than the Proceed, I don't mind if I am proven wrong, but I am highly doubtful on this one.
I guess it depends on what pre/pro. The Cary may as it has discrete audio only in the 11. The 6 is exceptional at 2 channel. That pulled the trigger for me.
Venom what did I ever do to you that you linked me to a 100+ page thread? (laughing) It's very interesting that the OP had over 20 different preamps - that's what I call commitment and obsession, but hey the guy has a lot of good info and its nice to know the Proceed stands up so well. From your link I looked into Cary and I sure it will sound nice, but there two box solution would be either $6k or $6.5k, again I don't think musically it would be superior to the Proceed, so an option I am thinking about is the Integra 9.8 or Onkyo Pro 885 (since they're the same basically) for movies and keeping the Proceed for music and if the new stuff is actually better then I'm fine with selling the Proceed.
The Cary aint cheap, that is why I went with the older model. But be warned that if any audio guys find out you are using Onkyo or Integra with B&W Nautilus, you will be laughed out of town.
You have excellent speakers, I personally think they are overkill for HT use only. But that is me. I cannot see an upgrade at this time for the HD sound formats as there is no standard yet. HDMI 1.4 is just around the corner.
Venom
IGood to know the switcher works as it looks like the Integra and Onkyo are backordered till close to the first of the year and this would be a cheap short term solution. Just an FYI the BR disc Casino Royale has a lossless 5.1 track which I choose through the menu setup I watched the movie for 15 minutes or so and thought something just doesnt sound right so I put my ear right up the center channel and nothing was coming out, changed it back to DD 5.1 and it played fine and since I am using a PS3 and it doesnt seem to have an update to decode these lossless tracks I'll have to wait and see what it would do when and if Sony makes the update.......
Gotta run sorry for the typos etc. don't have time to proof.
