phase inversion

sucks2beme

Everyone knows not to mismatch phase, but does inverting the phase to
BOTH speakers make a diffrence?

RuSsMaN

No.

We don't care if the drivers move in or out first, as long as they all do it the same.

sucks2beme

RuSsMaN wrote: »

No.

We don't care if the drivers move in or out first, as long as they all do it the same.

I didn't think so. I know some hardware inverts output. Some people make a big deal out of it. I'm looking at a Scott Nixon DAC kit for my music server output.

Ricardo

It matters if your speakers are SDA and you invert from the amp to the speakers.

sucks2beme

HTrookie wrote: »

It matters if your speakers are SDA and you invert from the amp to the speakers.

Not an SDA application. :mad:
Maybe someday.

Face

sucks2beme wrote: »

Everyone knows not to mismatch phase, but does inverting the phase to
BOTH speakers make a diffrence?

Yes. It changes the soundstage and can increase or decrease bass response.

madmax

Yes, the difference in sound is noticeable. Phase is inverted in many preamps because they can eliminate one of the stages of amplification. In these cases many people invert the speaker phase so the output is not inverted. Try a DAC or similar device which allows you to change the phase while listening. It is definitely noticeable.
madmax

madmax

HTrookie wrote: »

It matters if your speakers are SDA and you invert from the amp to the speakers.

If you do want to change phase in an SDA speaker it is possible. You must change the phase of each driver independently while leaving the input wiring (speaker cable) the same.

madmax

jakelm

Doesnt changing the polarity of the driver or the intire speaker post, effect ohm and xover?

mhardy6647

Some folks claim to be able to "hear" (i.e., recognize) absolute phase; others don't. I fall into the latter category, although I've seen someone locally say "that doesn't sound right" and, sure enough, the phase of both speakers had been flipped.

Hardly proof, though.

Generally, absolute phase is a more divisive topic than expensive cables or even biwiring! :-) There's a nutcase at AA that used to post regularly on the topic (and stir up considerable, and acrimonious, discussion). I think they must've straitjacketed him lately, though.

dkg999

This area confuses me. I use a Rogue Audio 66 Magnum pre that is phase inverting. My Parasound HCA-1500A power amp is not phase inverting. When I switch my speaker cables to invert phase (ie positive lead to negative terminal on amp, negative lead to positive terminal on amp) I get a much wider and deep sound stage on the Magnepan 1.6QR's, plus I get tighter bass out of my sub. It's not a huge difference, but it is a difference.

hoosier21

dkg999 wrote: »

This area confuses me. I use a Rogue Audio 66 Magnum pre that is phase inverting. My Parasound HCA-1500A power amp is not phase inverting. When I switch my speaker cables to invert phase (ie positive lead to negative terminal on amp, negative lead to positive terminal on amp) I get a much wider and deep sound stage on the Magnepan 1.6QR's, plus I get tighter bass out of my sub. It's not a huge difference, but it is a difference.

So what is confussing you? Sounds like you proved it does matter.

dkg999

hoosier21 wrote: »

So what is confussing you? Sounds like you proved it does matter.

I read too many conflicting theories on the internet, and now I don't know whether I should actually hear a difference or not. And then there is the whole topic of having the phase of your system matching the phase the CD was recorded in. Somedays I just set back and enjoy the music and can't worry about all this technical stuff

Face

Big difference here. Even my girlfriend can tell.

jakelm

The Phase Inversion on Strek Trek is awsome.

sucks2beme

It looks like some testing is in order. Maybe system dependant?
Takes a while on the tube amp. Power down for a couple of minutes,
swap, give it a couple of minutes to warm up. I guess I'll do the test.
I'm going to order the DAC kit non-inveting to be on the safe side.
I know flipping just one the wrong way really screws them up. That I can
hear in a heartbeat.

beardog03

my Cary is a phase inverting pre, and I have the cables on the back of the amp "backwards"....it sounds great , but I can`t help but think that I`m gonna screw up my amp somehow...

It`s just weird to have the speaks hooked up backwards...

mhardy6647

my Cary is a phase inverting pre, and I have the cables on the back of the amp "backwards"....it sounds great , but I can`t help but think that I`m gonna screw up my amp somehow...
It`s just weird to have the speaks hooked up backwards...

It's AC! None of your components are going to mind (in fact, they won't even know).

Systems

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Generally, absolute phase is a more divisive topic than expensive cables or even biwiring!

he he I can believe it.:D Is said nutcase the author of the Wood Effect by chance?CJ

Systems

jakelm wrote: »

Doesnt changing the polarity of the driver or the intire speaker post, effect ohm and xover?

No nothing changes with the xover or impedance.

mhardy6647

In fairness, the waveform of actual music (as opposed to test tones) is very complex and in fact can be briefly asymmetric with respect to 0 VDC (i.e., the "+" peak is not always, always matched with an equal and opposite "-" peak, as in a sine or square wave). This gives, in effect, a "quasi-DC" component to a music waveform (short pulses of + or - signal that isn't really oscillating)... so, the theoretical idea that one could hear the difference between normal and inverted phase seems to have some merit (IMNSHO).

Realistically, it's not something worth worrying about (again, IMNSHO).

ka7niq

A friend uses this http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=music&content_id=4&pagestring=System&album_id=8

jakelm

ka7niq wrote: »

A friend uses this http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=music&content_id=4&pagestring=System&album_id=8

30khz? I didnt know a vinyl could go that high in FR. I thought a vinyl had a slope not far after 20khz, which made it sound so laid back.

Learn something new everyday.

ka7niq

jakelm wrote: »

30khz? I didnt know a vinyl could go that high in FR. I thought a vinyl had a slope not far after 20khz, which made it sound so laid back.

Learn something new everyday.

I don't know much about this Jake.
A friend has this, swears by it too.
But unfortunately, I am no loger a vinyl guy
Like a darn fool, I sold all my albums and VPI cleaning machine to go digital some time ago.
Precious music missing from my life.
Like many, I was TOLD that almost everything would be re released on Cd, LOL at myself!
Had a decent set up too, an Oracle table with a Dynavector Ruby in an SME arm think it was.
Had an old Supex 900 E plus super cartridge, the "poor mans Koutsu" too.
It didn't track too well, but was really lush sounding.

Oh well .....

Face

Both my DAC and Pre have inversion switches.

The DAC is either 0 or 180, the Pre is 0-90-180.

At 180, as I mentioned earlier, the soundstage is much smaller and there is less bass at most frequencies. But at 90 degrees, it sounds like absolute crap. No bass, and soundstage is non-existent.

Using a SPL meter, the difference between 0 and 180 was minimal, but there was a large drop at 90 degrees.

Systems

Face wrote: »

I mentioned earlier, the soundstage is much smaller and there is less bass at most frequencies. But at 90 degrees, it sounds like absolute crap. No bass, and soundstage is non-existent.

using a SPL meter, the difference between 0 and 180 was minimal, but there was a large drop at 90 degrees.

Hummm something odd going on here. Presumably the phase of both channels is being changed at the same time therefore they will still be in phase so there should be no cancellation in the bass.

sucks2beme

Well, no difference was heard. I swapped polarity on both speakers at the same time and played the same cuts of music over and over. I turned off the tube amp, waited for the glow to stop, and swapped. And swapped.
And swapped. With tubes, there's a transformer on the output.
I don't know if this affects it, but either way, not audible in my system.

george daniel

Question for the techees,, with my SDA 1C's, using a preamp that inverts phase,, I reverse the cables at the speaker end,,, then,,I would "reverse" the polarity on each driver/tweeter for the SDA effect to work properly,,, yes????

Ricardo

George, I don't think it's as simple as that. The whole common ground thing is the problem IMO. If you reverse the speaker wires, you will be having a common "hot", or in other words it will be like wiring together the red binding posts. The type of interconnect cable you are using will have a role here (blade/blade, pin/blade or AI-1), but I would be very careful before doing this.

george daniel

Ricardo wrote: »

George, I don't think it's as simple as that. The whole common ground thing is the problem IMO. If you reverse the speaker wires, you will be having a common "hot", or in other words it will be like wiring together the red binding posts. The type of interconnect cable you are using will have a role here (blade/blade, pin/blade or AI-1), but I would be very careful before doing this.

Ricardo,, I'm just referring to phase,,nothing with the amps ground,, but I see where you are coming from,,OTOH,, if one stuck a DAC inline and "flipped" the phase,,then there would be no need to go any further I think,,with the SDA's,,I'm getting a headache thinking about it..

Systems

george daniel wrote: »

I reverse the cables at the speaker end,,, then,,I would "reverse" the polarity on each driver/tweeter for the SDA effect to work properly,,, yes????

No,reverse speaker wires only,reversing the driver polarities also will just get you back to normal phase where you started.Be sure to keep the common ground strap on the amps neg terminals.

george daniel wrote: »

,OTOH,, if one stuck a DAC inline and "flipped" the phase,,then there would be no need to go any further I think,,with the SDA's,,

Yes and you will achieve the same thing by reversing the speaker wires at one end.You may or may not hear a difference between absolute and inverted phase.