Exempt vrs Nonexempt vrs HR within a company

HBombToo

As a manager I'm always at odds with company guidelines set by HR and the RIGHT thing to do. I am only human and make many mistakes myself but I am in a situation that I'm in absolute disagreement with but can't do anything about it and need some Opinions.

If a NonExempt employee's job requirements include the use of a company vehicle and the employee gets popped with a dui, on there own time and vehicle, what should happen? The employee was honest with management upfront and reported the incident right away and prior to being convicted how should that/any employee be dealt with.

Can the company take immediate action prior to any conviction based on company policy or must the company waite untill the individual is convicted officially by the judicial system.

This is a real grey area for me in understanding the law and have never been presented with this situation so what is the RIGHT path to follow and is a huge Q. Fortunately for me this is not in my department and I'm not responsible for action but it could be in the future...

I would like to submit letters of recomendation in favor for this employee but I am concerned with crossing the departmental lines as a manager. I received the information through the grapevine so officially I am not aware of the situation and can't directly get involved yet. There are however, ways to circumvent this issue and as a manager being informed by 1 of my employees can in theory take action. **** this is FRUSTRATING!

All response and Opinions are welcomed in this situation.

Regards
HBomb:(

madmax

Well,
Until he is convicted in a court of law what right does your company have to assess his actions and judge him? You could go as far as firing him only to learn later that the BAC test was faulty or the machine had not been calibrated for 6 months or that the person giving the test was not trained properly etc... If that turned out to be the case and I was the person later aquitted of the charges then I would sue the hell out of your company. Besides, his actions have nothing to do with your company until he has the dui on his record. I see no question in this one unless someone within the company has a personal problem with this employee or is self rightious about this particular social problem. What is the next step in company policy if they can can someone for unrelated non-company damaging actions by their employees? Someone needs to take a "real pill".
Btw, I do not condone these actions (dui)nor do I practice them but what business is it of your company?
madmax

madmax

One more rant here. My company can be heartless but they at least wait until the evidence is in. At that point they would move the person around to a more suitable position assuming the person had any redeemable value whatsoever.
madmax

Paul Connor

HBombToo,

Just a couple of thoughts. I am a manager for a very large and well known corporation. The guidlines and policies are clearly communicated to all employees concerning conduct. Certainly these policies will differ depending on the size and culture of a company, but the bottom line is this. If you want to be employed, you MUST live within policy. It is a condition of employment. In other words, if you don't like the policy, go find another company to work for. I know this must sound rather cold, and I certainly understand how people get caught up in things. Many times situations are not black and white, but all life is about choice.

In 1984 legislation was written that required all individuals in our industry to be subject to random and post accident drug testing. At the time, I was outraged and considered resigning, but didn't. I stayed with it, understanding that most things in life are a trade off. Now 18 years later, it has become just another part of what we do. And by the way, the industry today is safer than ever.

The really hard part of being a manager is dealing with people and the situations they get themselves into. Many times you will be caught in the middle of company policy and your personal feelings for individuals. There is the rub. It is noble and good to stand with the people you work with, but not by sacrificing what is you know is right. It is really easy to get emotionally involved in situations like this. Let's face it, we are all human.

Sorry if this sounds like preaching. It's not. I certainly enjoy good Bourbon and Mexican Beer. In the old days I was known to roll a few doobies, but times have changed. Police cannot just send you along your merry way with a warning any more. Sad. Sad.

Hope everything works out.

Paul

P.S. Our company does not consider a DUI valid unless it is a court conviction. At that time the employee must report it to the company. Options are available through an employee assistance program if someone has a drug or alcohol problem.

HBombToo

madmax, you and i agree in whole and Thanks for the reaffirmation. I received a dui and the process was the best thing for ME as far as a Wake Up Call to my, "STUPIDITY!". That being said and because I don't know how to quote with a pretty box,... you said:

"Besides, his actions have nothing to do with your company until he has the dui on his record. I see no question in this one unless someone within the company has a personal problem with this employee or is self rightious about this particular social problem."

I am concerned that, "Self Rightious", is what I'm dealing with and thats, " UNFORTUNATE! "

A rant back! and Thanks for understanding.
HBomb

HBombToo

Wow Paul, I would like to say there is NO way that in your statements a Cold or Preachy idea was conveyed. Only Fact!

@ 37 I have not yet graduated to the detached opinions... I remain personally and emotionally attached to that very same ideal that drove me into engineering... that feeling of AHHHH about the World around me... the amazement of PEOPLE around me with so many wonderfull ideas... the mystery that drives us to live in a state of total curiosity. How did we become so mechanized in our thoughts and where has the wonder gone? We can't be so stone faced on LIFE.. Can we?

Yes on a case by case basis we need to think outside of the Box and that is why I raised this topic in a public forum.... Drug and Alcohol programs must be first in corporate America before termination.

Like I said. Frustrating!

Thanks
HBomb

Paul Connor

HBombToo,

I am of the opinion that people never detach themselves from feeling or opinion where other human beings are involved. Those who appear detached and cold are merely putting on a mask to hide what they truly feel. Only a true psychopath can detach himself from another human.

If I am reading your posts right, I get the sense that you are frustrated not only by company policy, but the feeling that you are somehow helpless to control or influence a situation you feel is wrong. Don't be discouraged. Don't let a corporation or company mentality erode the excitement and enthusiasm you have for life. Companies have a way of doing this to people. I don't really understand it, but I think it has something to do with the human need to feel that he or she owns some kind of freedom. When we feel confined, whether by policy or walls, we sometimes turn that frustration inward and it can eat away at the very core of our being. Turn us into company drones so to speak.

The industrial revolution has not been good to us.

Paul

HBombToo

Exactly!

While in college, damn near homeless status... my future WAS in my control regarding that next test preperation, lecture attendance, software package available at the bookstore that may need purchased. Now I can't just think about myself... Goals, Family, Money, Security, People and their secure plus the many other challenges were faced with. Then there is always Right and Wrong... how is it possible to ensure that after ballacing what is most important to yourself that we don't forget the implications of our actions on the individuals around us.

Yes! I am a control nut when it comes to my engineering Goals but where do I draw the line regarding said control? and at the end of the Day how well do I sleep? i guess I'm asking should I do anything?

Yes I am frustrated but thanks for your insight. @ least I know I'm not alone in my thoughts.

HBomb

shack

The problem that you have here is the litigious society that we live in and the problems that it creates. Let's say that the company agrees that maybe they should wait and see if the DUI conviction stands. This employee who must drive a company owned vehicle to perform his job then goes out on his job and drives while intoxicated and has an accident and someone is injured or killed. Guess what. The company will be sued because they had knowledge that this person had a "potential" drinking problem and did nothing to prevent it. The liability is tremendous. This is not speculation....this has happened and will happen again. If the company is not huge they may not be able to absorb the loss or if their insurance carrier has to pay they may refuse to continue coverage which could also contribute to the company's downfall. Plus...owners and managers are now being held PERSONALLY liable for their actions if it is deemed there was neglect by allowing this person that "might " have a drinking problem to drive a company owned vehicle.

The bottom line is that the RISK is too great for the company to take once they have the knowledge that there is a potential problem. Most companies make it clear that if you must drive for them then you better not put yourself in this position. There is ZERO tolerance.

I know that this may sound harsh and unfair but this is the reality of Corporate America today. Convicted or not your company cannot risk the well-being of the entire organization for this man. Guilty or not there was obviously enough to charge and had the man had not had anything to drink before he drove (the chance of being charged if you have not had anything to drink is almost non-existent) he would not be in this position today.

I'm sorry for the man and I hope he gets another chance and never has this problem again.

As far as writing a letter of recommendation I think you could write one as long as it is brutally factual and includes all that you know....both good and bad.

Paul Connor

Shack you hit the nail squarely on the head. We even have a department titled Risk Management to deal with all types of issues that put the company in jeopardy. It is important to always look at both sides. Rules and policy are important and the reasons for these rules and policies are not always apparent until someone has crossed the line and is looking at the consequences.

From a career standpoint we must never lose sight of the fact that someone can walk into our place of work tomorrow morning and send us home. For many reasons. That knowledge can set a person free to focus on what is truly important in life. Family, friends, and all the wonderful things that make up the human experience. Nature, art, music, literature, and oh I almost forgot, The Rolling Stones Let it Bleed album.

With all that **** said, work is also important. Do what you love, or don't do it. Work is satisfying, it fulfills us in ways that are hard to describe. It is hard to balance those things. My belief is that few people are succesful at this. I know personally that I struggle with it daily. There is terrible psychic guilt associated with working while your wife and kids are at the play you missed. But at the end of the day, we must provide.

Paul

"I want to be a happy idiot and struggle for the legal tender"--Jackson Browne

madmax

Just an aditional note. I agree with the following:

"The company will be sued because they had knowledge that this person had a "potential"
drinking problem and did nothing to prevent it. The liability is tremendous. This is not
speculation....this has happened and will happen again."

However, to eliminate this problem one only has to require a class or some preventative measure be completed.

At this point it is still much safer for the company to work with the person rather than to eliminate him. Keep in mind that there are numerous ways to evade the dui conviction. If he does then you have a real problem. It can take over a few years to settle this in court and if your company dismissed him with no proof of guilt then they will end up paying him for lost work, finding new employment, mental anguish, maybe even relocation, etc... Please note that I am not a legal person but some of this is obvious.
madmax

HBombToo

shack said:
"I know that this may sound harsh and unfair but this is the reality of Corporate America today. Convicted or not your company cannot risk the well-being of the entire organization for this man. Guilty or not there was obviously enough to charge and had the man had not had anything to drink before he drove (the chance of being charged if you have not had anything to drink is almost non-existent) he would not be in this position today."

Believe it or not shack... This was the last and most important idea brought to surface before the last, never happened, coversation ended. I am so concerned about my little girl... these type topics are at the forefront of considerations regarding company policy.

A lot of people can be negatively impacted buy the wrong decision...

Thanks and I'm glad I started this topic.

shack

At this point it is still much safer for the company to work with the person rather than to eliminate him. Keep in mind that there are numerous ways to evade the dui conviction. If he does then you have a real problem. It can take over a few years to settle this in court and if your company dismissed him with no proof of guilt then they will end up paying him for lost work, finding new employment, mental anguish, maybe even relocation, etc...

If I'm this company's Legal council I would rather defend a wrongful dismissal suit vs a wrongful death suit.

I don't know about your state but where I live the employeers don't have to have a reason to let you go unless you are under contract.

Plus it is their vehicle and they can decide who drives it.

Please note that I am not a legal person but some of this is obvious.

In the law what is obvious or what seems to be logical has no bearing!

madmax

Keep in mind though that this person was not driving the company vehicle (as hbomb stated)

"gets popped with a dui, on there own time and vehicle"

If the employee had not notified them they would probably not have even found out yet. Depends on the circumstances. Sounds like the employee should have not said anything.

I still don't see where the company has anything in this until the person is convicted???

madmax

TroyD

I dunno, I've been following this thread and keep going back and forth on the issue.

I would agree that the person needs to be convicted before anything happens, however, in a dui case, it's usually pretty cut and dry.

However, I tend to think that if your company (as does the US military) has a clear policy on the consequences of a dui, especially in an 'employment at will' state, well, that's the way it goes.

On a more personal level, driving under the influence is a choice. You make the choice, you pay the price. Losing a job sucks but it would suck worse knowing you killed someone.

BDT

avelanchefan

I have worked for 3 different companies over the last 11 years. And every single one of them had a policy for people that used company cars.

If you are convicted of a DUI on your off time you are dismissed. It was cut and dry. There is to much risk involved legally. And they did not want someone driving their vehicles that were that irresponsible.

And while I feel for the guy that did it, it was his own stupidity. Get a taxi, find a buddy to drive you home. This day and age you should not be drinking more than one or two beer's in an evening and getting behind the wheel. Sure it may sound stupid, but its the law.

PETERNG

The company can't not take action until your DUI is convicted by the court of law. Now, let get to the taking action part, it's really depend on the rules and guildlines and policy of your company, usually are written on the employee handbook, if it's clearly stated that if you are convicted of DUI, you can not operate the company vechicles then they will not let you drive the company car any longer, these are risk control techniques and were set as company policy to reduce potential future losses and also by the requirements of your company's insurance policy, not because of illegal issues. Some companies have some other ways to deal with this situation with more flexibilities. Re- allign the employees job functions so that he/she don't have much of the driving exposures. Give the employee another chance for the employee to rehab him/heself by sendding them to the defensive driving courses and monitoring their driving habit on the daily/weekly basis...etc... (good management) As a good employee, you must be honest and follow the company policy, and as a good manager you must enforce the policy, like it or not, you can't not let your personal feelings interfere with it. As the rule of thumb, if I don't like the company policy, I may want to get some opporturnities to discuss about it with senior management and may suggest some changes, if all of those don't work, then life is tough and I'll know what to do...next...

madmax

Originally posted by avelanchefan
This day and age you should not be drinking more than one or two beer's in an evening and getting behind the wheel. Sure it may sound stupid, but its the law.

Two beers is enough to get you charged in my state. 0.08. If you have a commercial license that goes down to less than 0.05 in which case one drink can get you.

madmax

jdavy

If he does not drink on the job and shows up sober for work, you can not fire him for his personal business. However, if the DMV suspends his license to drive and he needs that to work, he can do his job and must leave. One major question I have is this a first offence of a other wise good employee who is going though a ruff time or is this a trouble maker you would like to get rid of anyway. What ever you decide to do you need to build a case and protect you and your company from a descrimination suit. It is possible that you can help this guy and end up with a very loyal employee for life. Never forget there is two sides to a coin.

HBombToo

You all have made some very good points on behalf of both sides. This is a very difficult situation because I know the individual does not have any major problems just in this case it was bad luck. I believe my stance will be hands off unless this person directly asks me for a letter. It is such a sticky topic that I feel that I should distance myself untill called upon.

Oh well... live and learn.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

HBomb