Why would a retailer remove the serial numbers?

jimmyzen

I came across a seller on eBay who sells primarily speakers including Polk products. He says that his distributor removes the serial number sticker from any Polk speaker and also removes the yellow paper with the serial number from the carton. (I assume it's removed from anything else sold, too but we only discussed a Polk product) He said this is done because Polk does not honor the warranty on any speaker sold online. Considering how many retailers sell Polk products online I can't believe this is true. I had previously bought a speaker from him and it had the serial number. It was not on the speaker but the carton had the yellow form with the serial number on it. When I told him that he said that it was a mistake and that the paper should have been removed. Then he went on to say I could return it if I wanted to. This seller has well over 2000 transactions with a very high feedback rating, but his answers trouble me. I would think if I was to send in a speaker for repair that had the serial number obliterated or removed that would raise some eyebrows. What legitimate reasons could there possibly be for removing an item's serial number that don't smack of something shady? Could it be from a fire sale or something where a store liquidated inventory and insurance paid for the stock? I emailed him and told him I couldn't believe that his portrayal of Polk's warranty policy was accurate and bluntly asked if the stuff he sold was hot. I was never too tactful and believe in speaking bluntly when necessary. I haven't heard back from him yet. Someone please ease my conscience!

I apologize if this isn't the appropriate place to ask this but I don't know where else to post it.

Dennis Gardner

Unauthoriezed seller, grey market, without warranty, most likely. The distributor removes the serial # so that Polk doesn't catch on to the grey market sale. Without the number, no trace can be done.

Serendipity

I'd think the speakers were stolen.

shack

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

Unauthoriezed seller, grey market, without warranty, most likely. The distributor removes the serial # so that Polk doesn't catch on to the grey market sale. Without the number, no trace can be done.

BINGO! Unless you buy Polk speakers from an AUTHORIZED seller there is no warranty. Polk will funish you with the names of online sellers that are authorized. NO serial #...no warranty...

BaggedLancer

shack wrote: »

BINGO! Unless you buy Polk speakers from an AUTHORIZED seller there is no warranty. Polk will funish you with the names of online sellers that are authorized. NO serial #...no warranty...

That being said I'm the speakers that the OP is speaking of are an outstanding price. If warranty is no issue and they are real Polks is there really a problem? You can always buy replacement drivers and rebuild your own crossovers like many do.

Unless of course this grey market is illegal. If it is then don't buy them. Excuse my ignorance but I know nothing about the legality of speakers sold online.

shack

Illegal? No but whoever is selling them out the back door after purchasing them from Polk is more than likely violating their contract. Some retailers will buy large quantities to get volume purchase discounts and then sell what they don't need to the "grey market" sellers. The original purchasers are contractually bound to sell at or near MSRP...the grey market isn't. Polk isn't as hard nosed about it as some like B&W. Ever find a good online deal on B&Ws?...not going to happen cause they will pull the right to purchase and sell B&W in a heartbeat if they find out.

Grey market Polks are probably 1st line gear...but there is no way to know for sure if they are the real thing or if they are counterfeits (just one of the reasons Polk wants control over the distribution). If the price is right...then you take your chances and live with the outcome...just don't **** if there is a problem.

BaggedLancer

Ahhh, I didn't realize they were being purchased directly from Polk..... I assumed that many of those online sellers purchase them in a closeout deal from a store going out of business, or last years closeouts from major stores, etc..... Which is why I could understand why they were pulling serial numbers because they couldn't offer the warranty that the authorized sellers were giving.

Counterfeits would be the other huge problem, didn't even think of that.

Dennis Gardner

Grey market isn't illegal from your standpoint, simply a shady thing for an authorized distributor to involve themselves with. They put their good status with Polk in some jeopardy and drive the perceived values down since most buyers don't know the difference and don't know they are getting a lesser value without that great 5 year warranty.......

shack

BaggedLancer wrote:

Ahhh, I didn't realize they were being purchased directly from Polk.....

That's just it...the speakers sold from non authorized sellers are NOT being purchased from Polk. An authorized seller is selling them out the back door contrary to their contractual agreement with Polk.

BaggedLancer

Ahhhh I gotcha now.....however, couldn't there also be something like the closeout that I mentioned where a company comes in and buys up a retailers remaining inventory to sell? Whether they sell it online or out of a warehouse wouldnt they still need to remove serial numbers for no warranty?

jimmyzen

shack wrote: »

Illegal? No but whoever is selling them out the back door after purchasing them from Polk is more than likely violating their contract. Some retailers will buy large quantities to get volume purchase discounts and then sell what they don't need to the "grey market" sellers. The original purchasers are contractually bound to sell at or near MSRP...the grey market isn't. Polk isn't as hard nosed about it as some like B&W. Ever find a good online deal on B&Ws?...not going to happen cause they will pull the right to purchase and sell B&W in a heartbeat if they find out.

Grey market Polks are probably 1st line gear...but there is no way to know for sure if they are the real thing or if they are counterfeits (just one of the reasons Polk wants control over the distribution). If the price is right...then you take your chances and live with the outcome...just don't **** if there is a problem.

I'm not bitching. I just believe in doing the right thing in everything I do. I bought a PSW1000 from him and paid about $850.00. That didn't seem unreasonable because I know there is a pretty hefty markup on electronics. Looking at what they were selling for at the time -$1000 to $1100- seemed to be the average. It came with the serial number, all the original packaging seemed authentic,the literature, the weight of the thing, and the sound, the finish etc. It's real. No doubt there. The second one cost me just over $800. Again, not unreasonable. When the second one came and was totally numberless it bugged me. I just do not knowingly want to buy anything that's stolen or otherwise ill gotten. Period. My first real stereo was stolen over 30 years ago and I still hope the people that did it burn in hell for it. I try to be as straight up as I can in how I live my life. I guess that's considered a character flaw these days but I don't mind being flawed. I was unaware of the grey market thing and that makes sense. The seller has been operating far too long and has too many sales and satisfied buyers to have been running an illegal scam for as long as he has.

treitz3

But then again, you never know....

E-pray has some sellers that have impeccable records, but....

Systems

I bought my FX5's that way. Got them a lot cheaper then retail from an ebay seller just like that. Guy had TONS of Polk stuff for sale and a huge amount of positive feedback. It was an online business. The front grill even broke in shipping and they sent me replacements. Speakers are perfect with the exception that the serial numbers were taken off. I didn’t know they would be like that and when I asked them, they told me that they did the war on them (1 year).

No way they were not legit.

jimmyzen

BaggedLancer wrote: »

Ahhh, I didn't realize they were being purchased directly from Polk..... I assumed that many of those online sellers purchase them in a closeout deal from a store going out of business, or last years closeouts from major stores, etc..... Which is why I could understand why they were pulling serial numbers because they couldn't offer the warranty that the authorized sellers were giving.

Counterfeits would be the other huge problem, didn't even think of that.

How much of a problem are counterfeit Polk products? Except for the guys-in the-van-delivering-$1000.00 speakers-that-have-an-extra-set-the-guys-at-the-warehouse-accidentally-loaded-up-that-they-only-want-$100-for scam that are just big cardboard boxes with speaker logos filled with random articles to make them feel heavy, I didn't know counterfeit stereo gear was a problem. Seems like it would be hard to counterfeit something as well constructed and finely finished as a Polk speaker and be able to do it cheaply enough to make it worthwhile. Wood isn't cheap these days. Especially faking something as weighty as a powered sub. And then to clone the factory box, packing materials, and literature and even go so far as to put glue residue on where the serial number sticker used to be. I know eBay took some heat for people selling stolen items on it so I'd imagine they are a bit more cautious and the fed-rul po-leece check it out regularly, especially high ticket items. Again, the grey market thing makes sense because the sheer number of these things he's sold over the many months I've been looking at speakers would indicate he has a supply available. Removing the SN under the terms described elsewhere in here make more sense. Maybe I watched too many Soprano episodes and imagined a heisted semi trailer load of PSW1000s in a back lot somewhere in Philly.:rolleyes: I told him I registered the first one I got from him and he didn't get upset about it. He just said it was a mistake and someone should have taken the paper out and if I was worried about either one having no numbers I could send them back.

F1nut

No serial number, yep.....gray market and yep, NO Polk warranty.

jimmyzen

treitz3 wrote: »

But then again, you never know....

E-pray has some sellers that have impeccable records, but....

I've bought and sold on eBay for almost 8 years and I assure you I haven't preyed on anybody. This is the only questionable experience I have ever had and it seems to have been explained.

Dennis Gardner

Silverti wrote: »

No way they were not legit.

They weren't legit new Polks with the 5 year factory warranty. They were pseudo-legit new Polks with 1 year dealer warranty. Happens all the time, doesn't make the speakers themselves bad, they are new afterall, you just paid less for less coverage.

jimmyzen

The grey market analogy was correct. The seller's response informed me that was indeed the case. He is not an "authorized" Polk dealer, hence the speakers he sells do not have a warranty. To quote him, "I've been in this business for over 25 years and there's no way I would have been in it that long if I was running some sort of scam or doing anything illegal." Granted, it may have been a bit more forthcoming of him to have stated in his auction that the sub, although new, did not have a factory warranty. I would have still bought it (them) regardless.

I have faith in Polk products to last at least beyond the factory warranty period hence I'm not worried about any of the Polk products I own failing prematurely. I've been an electronic tech for almost 30 years, albeit more with industrial equipment than audio gear although I have repaired my own stuff several times over the years. I can handle most repairs myself. If I don't feel like messing with something I send it out for repair or I replace it.

So, now I breathe a sigh of relief and can rest easy without worrying about a black Ford sedan with the little silver hubcaps and a plethora of antennas on the trunk pulling into my driveway. :eek:

Thanks to those that responded and informed me of the grey market and the whole authorized dealer/warranty connection. It was both informative and comforting. I appreciate your time.:)

LocoMoco

I'm new in this arena about grey markets. I did cross path with someone that claimed to be a dealer and would sell me new equipment at substantially reduced prices. I couldn't send in the warranty card and would deal directly with him for repairs. He was restricted to sell to me due to territory restrictions. For me, that raised a big red flag!

I also thought, what about all the gear on those online classified sites. If you buy used, you are still taking a chance on the quality and condition of the item. Warranty may be expired or non-transferable.

The speakers were not Polk, but I do own a pair of Polk speakers for more than 15 years without a problem. *knock on wood*

polkhix

I just recently picked up Polk LSi 15s from a dealer on Ebay. He talked about being an authorized dealer; when I recieved the speakers they had all of the warranty information with them. Registering the speakers online at Polk was without incident. He did have a long history of positive feedback. The name of the company was Z-Tech Electronics out of LA, and his work around was selling a $25 dollar coupon on Ebay which you would then redeem through his store.

Build quality appears to be perfect and I would hope if the serial numbers were fake that the registration process would have thrown up a flag.

shack

polkhix wrote:

I just recently picked up Polk LSi 15s from a dealer on Ebay. He talked about being an authorized dealer; when I recieved the speakers they had all of the warranty information with them. Registering the speakers online at Polk was without incident. He did have a long history of positive feedback. The name of the company was Z-Tech Electronics out of LA, and his work around was selling a $25 dollar coupon on Ebay which you would then redeem through his store.

Build quality appears to be perfect and I would hope if the serial numbers were fake that the registration process would have thrown up a flag.

The registration process is not what gets you the warranty. You can make up a number and the registration will go through. It DOES NOT mean you have a valid warranty. If/when you need warranty repair you must furnish a receipt from an Authorized dealer. ALL the dealers will tell your they are authorized...but if they are not on Polks list (and you can go to the main website to verify) the warranty may not be valid.

Directly from Polks info: (not the highlighted info)

To ensure a valid warranty, Polk products must be purchased at an Authorized Polk Audio Dealer. (If you're not sure a dealer is "authorized," call Polk Audio at 1-800-377-7655, and ask us.) eBay is not an authorized dealer! The warranty is not transferable, that means it applies only to the original purchaser. If you purchase your speakers from a private individual, that product is considered "used" and has NO factory warranty, no matter what the seller implies.

The warranty is VOID if the serial number of the speaker has been removed or defaced. These warranty terms apply only to products purchased in Canada, the United States of America, its possessions, and US and NATO armed forces exchanges and audio clubs. The Warranty terms and conditions applicable to Products purchased in other countries are available from the Polk Audio Authorized Distributor in such countries.

As always when dealing with e-bay or the net....buyer beware.

polkhix

Thanks for the heads up Shack. Seems too bad that the database used for registration does not cross reference a valid list of serial numbers.

fireshoes

The serial number would show up as valid because Polk doesn't know which authorized dealers are selling to unauthorized dealers, at least until a situation comes up where someone has a service claim and then show a receipt from an unauthorized dealer. Many companies also do random buys from unauthorized dealer to see if they can track where the merchandise came from. The actual selling by unauthorized dealers is not illegal. From what I understand, tampering with the serial numbers could be. The authorized dealers that sell to unauthorized ones are in violation of their dealer agreement though, and risk losing their right to sell Polk products.

LocoMoco

shack wrote: »

Grey market Polks are probably 1st line gear...but there is no way to know for sure if they are the real thing or if they are counterfeits (just one of the reasons Polk wants control over the distribution). If the price is right...then you take your chances and live with the outcome...just don't **** if there is a problem.

I've read people mentioning about counterfeits, but I never read about someone receiving one. Are there specific brands that have a higher percentage of counterfeits. Are counterfeits coming from another country, like China?

jimmyzen

The bottom line with me was money. When I went to buy new speakers I really only had about a grand I could afford to spend at the time. I bought a pair of used RTi 12s for around $900.00. Retail was usually $1500+ a pair. So my choice was either get what I truly wanted as a used item or buy something new that was a lesser model than what I wanted. I gladly swapped new and a warranty for getting the speakers I really wanted. Granted, had I known they were going to be discontinued and go on sale 3 months later in the $400.00 each price range I would have waited and bought new. Still, the probability of the RTi s failing is minimal. The two subs I bought from eBay saved me about $600 combined from retail. I would still have bought them even if it was clear up front they had no warranty. I have enough faith in Polk products to expect them to last beyond whatever the warranty period is anyway. Some people have more money in their audio systems than I probably earn in a year or more. I don't have that kind of money to spend. I wish I did because that's one of the few material things I would spend crazy money on. I think I have a good sound system for what I had to spend on it. Some of my gear is used, some is pretty old, some is brand new. I worked pretty hard to get what I have which makes it sound all the sweeter to me. Isn't that what really counts? I never knew happiness to come with a warranty.

bigaudiofanatic

I used to work at a sears and we removed them so that people couldnt take them and actavate the warranty for there own stuff. "Pretty rediculous hu"