Bi-amping using my NAD T773...awesome!!

2

Comments

  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited August 2007
    Ah ha . . . I don't think we could call it bi-wiring either. . . so did Phil come up with something new?
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,897
    edited August 2007
    And to comment on the other poster....

    The tweeter may only use a few watts, because the crossover crosses over the signal.

    However, the amp is actually powering a 20 - 20hz signal until it reaches that crossover, then it is broken down. But the power is still working just as hard as before - even if it is just a tweeter.

    Thats what it comes down to with the crossing of the amps part...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,699
    edited August 2007
    The tweeter may only use a few watts, because the crossover crosses over the signal.

    However, the amp is actually powering a 20 - 20hz signal until it reaches that crossover, then it is broken down. But the power is still working just as hard as before - even if it is just a tweeter.

    Actually, the amp is still powering 20 to 20K, but it is not working as hard. The woofer section on the CSi40 is 4.5ohms, the tweeter section is 400Kohms. Don't know the actual measurements of his speaks, but they will also have much higher readings on the tweeter circuit compared to the woofer circuit. How much power do you think the amp puts out into a 400Kohm load? Very little.
  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 4,966
    edited August 2007
    Maybe I'm missing something here. If the T773 can run all 7 channels at 110watts, & in stereo mode (2 channel...run 145watts) then if I'm taking the extra unused amp or unused power (surround back speakers) & bi-amping it with the power going to the fronts, how does that not increase the power going to my mains? I have speaker cables from the front channel going to the mid/woofer & speaker cables fron the surround back channel going to the tweeters. Running in stereo doesn't that make it 145watts to the tweeters & 145watts going to the mid/woofer? It seems logical, but then again what the hell do I know. It really doesn't matter how much the tweets & mid/woofer actually use (normal speaker usage is 10-12watts I believe) it's just that the reserve power is there when needed. I did email NAD & I'm waiting for a reply. Interesting topic for me, thanks for all the technical info.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,897
    edited August 2007
    I have never in my life seen a 400k ohm tweeter?

    Every tweeter I've ever had in my speakers have been the normal 4 or 8 ohm load by themself? And draw upwards of 50-100 watts continuous.

    An amp will power a 20-20 hz signal regardless... it dosnt know what it is powering unless you tell it otherwise, which has to be done before the amp receives its signal. Not afterwards.

    If you send a 120 watt signal of 20-20hz, to my understanding, its always going to be a 120 watt signal of 20-20hz... that is until you put something like a crossover before the amp receives the signal...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Bill Ayotte
    Bill Ayotte Posts: 1,860
    edited August 2007
    Maybe I'm missing something here. If the T773 can run all 7 channels at 110watts, & in stereo mode (2 channel...run 145watts) then if I'm taking the extra unused amp or unused power (surround back speakers) & bi-amping it with the power going to the fronts, how does that not increase the power going to my mains? I have speaker cables from the front channel going to the mid/woofer & speaker cables fron the surround back channel going to the tweeters. Running in stereo doesn't that make it 145watts to the tweeters & 145watts going to the mid/woofer? It seems logical, but then again what the hell do I know. It really doesn't matter how much the tweets & mid/woofer actually use (normal speaker usage is 10-12watts I believe) it's just that the reserve power is there when needed. I did email NAD & I'm waiting for a reply. Interesting topic for me, thanks for all the technical info.

    I think you are putting 220 to each speaker....110 on highs, and 110 on mid/lows....Technically, those channels are still driving something, so the 145 rule would not apply....Just my thought......
  • Midnite Mick
    Midnite Mick Posts: 1,591
    edited August 2007
    Phil, Phil, Phil....look at the trouble you cause with your shenanigans. :)

    You should have just stated that "good, Nad, sound" and none of this would have started.

    Mike
    Modwright SWL 9.0 SE (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Consonance cd120T
    Consonance Cyber 800 tube monoblocks (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC's with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Usher CP 6311

    Phillips Pronto TS1000 Universal Remote
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited August 2007
    Mike this stuff starts if someone mentions vanilla ice cream!!!!
  • Midnite Mick
    Midnite Mick Posts: 1,591
    edited August 2007
    I don't know if it is my imagination, but this stuff seems to be getting worse around here lately.
    Modwright SWL 9.0 SE (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Consonance cd120T
    Consonance Cyber 800 tube monoblocks (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC's with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Usher CP 6311

    Phillips Pronto TS1000 Universal Remote
  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,699
    edited August 2007
    I have never in my life seen a 400k ohm tweeter?

    Neither have I. I am talking about the entire tweeter network, including crossover. Do you have any speakers on hand with Bi terminals? If so, remove any jumpers, and measure each set of terminals. This does not give you a true reading, but it will demonstrate what I am talking about.
    If you send a 120 watt signal of 20-20hz, to my understanding, its always going to be a 120 watt signal of 20-20hz... that is until you put something like a crossover before the amp receives the signal...

    But your not sending 120 watts, due to the higher impedence. The higher the impedence, the less power the amp will put out.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,016
    edited August 2007
    Mike this stuff starts if someone mentions vanilla ice cream!!!!

    Vanilla ice cream tastes like chocolate.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 4,966
    edited August 2007
    Phil, Phil, Phil....look at the trouble you cause with your shenanigans. :)

    You should have just stated that "good, Nad, sound" and none of this would have started.

    Mike

    I had to liven things up around here, it was getting too boring!!! :D Anyway, I'm still looking for the magic answer. I don't think anyone's put their finger on the answer yet, just a lot of theory & speculation. Any thoughts??
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited August 2007
    Technically you arnt biamping, you are just powering to like signals into two jacks.
    well its called passive biamping because the passive crossovers are still used.What he is gaining is some extra headroom.
    True biamping would have an amp crossed over to only runs the highs, and the other amp cut off from powering the highs -- so its doing all it can for each individual piece.
    "True"biamping using an active crossover that divides the signal before the amps has many more benifits than the passive version.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • Midnite Mick
    Midnite Mick Posts: 1,591
    edited August 2007
    I had to liven things up around here, it was getting too boring!!! :D Anyway, I'm still looking for the magic answer. I don't think anyone's put their finger on the answer yet, just a lot of theory & speculation. Any thoughts??

    Nah, I am not smart enough for all this. Try it without the fancy bi-output and then with it. Listen to some very dynamic music at a high volume and let your ears decide. I just know if I like what I hear or I don't...I am simple folk I guess:)

    I personally think that all of their arguing over what is going on would be dependent on the design of this specific unit itself. I would sooner pose this question to Nad and/or someone that is knowledgeable of this specific unit if I really wanted to know.

    Glad you are enjoying things nonetheless.

    Mike
    Modwright SWL 9.0 SE (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Consonance cd120T
    Consonance Cyber 800 tube monoblocks (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC's with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Usher CP 6311

    Phillips Pronto TS1000 Universal Remote
  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 4,966
    edited August 2007
    Nah, I am not smart enough for all this. Try it without the fancy bi-output and then with it. Listen to some very dynamic music at a high volume and let your ears decide. I just know if I like what I hear or I don't...I am simple folk I guess:)

    I personally think that all of their arguing over what is going on would be dependent on the design of this specific unit itself. I would sooner pose this question to Nad and/or someone that is knowledgeable of this specific unit if I really wanted to know.

    Glad you are enjoying things nonetheless.

    Mike

    That's the first thing I did was to shoot an email off to NAD posing the question at hand. Then I posted here to get feedback on the same question. I got a lot of diferent takes on this bi-amping issue. I've read a lot of theory & speculation on the different answers here but I don't know which one or if any of the responses are correct or not. As soon as I hear back from NAD I'll post their answer (hopefully the correct one :D )
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
  • hoosier21
    hoosier21 Posts: 4,407
    edited August 2007
    more bad information from Vr3 :) read more type less
    Dodd - Battery Preamp
    Monarchy Audio SE100 Delux - mono power amps
    Sony DVP-NS999ES - SACD player
    ADS 1230 - Polk SDA 2B
    DIY Stereo Subwoofer towers w/(4) 12 drivers each
    Crown K1 - Subwoofer amp
    Outlaw ICBM - crossover
    Beringher BFD - sub eq

    Where is the remote? Where is the $%#$% remote!

    "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us have...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
  • Deadof_knight
    Deadof_knight Posts: 980
    edited August 2007
    I don't know if it is my imagination, but this stuff seems to be getting worse around here lately.

    It starts becuase we come running in here to check to see what everyone else wrote and to then say something in return hahaha it is entertainment and frustration all wrapped into one lil forum ! ;)
    :cool: " He who dies with the most equipment wins Right ? "

    Denon 3300 Adcom 535 BBe w/sub out 1 pr 4.6s 2 pr of 4 jrs Recent additions Samsung Lns-4095D LCD, Samsung hd-960 DVD, Monster HT-5000 Power center
    ,HPSA-1000 18" sealed DiY home sub.:D
    Black Laquer 1.2tl's w/ upgraded x-overs and Tweets BI-Amped with 2 Carver tfm-35's Knukonceptz 10ga cables
  • Dennis Gardner
    Dennis Gardner Posts: 4,860
    edited August 2007
    New audio term warning!!!!!!!!

    I guess the NAD with two power supplies wired this way is giving him Separately Powered, Passively Filtered Biamping.


    Put that in your signature Phil!!
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • Deadof_knight
    Deadof_knight Posts: 980
    edited August 2007
    Sweet Dennis !
    :cool: " He who dies with the most equipment wins Right ? "

    Denon 3300 Adcom 535 BBe w/sub out 1 pr 4.6s 2 pr of 4 jrs Recent additions Samsung Lns-4095D LCD, Samsung hd-960 DVD, Monster HT-5000 Power center
    ,HPSA-1000 18" sealed DiY home sub.:D
    Black Laquer 1.2tl's w/ upgraded x-overs and Tweets BI-Amped with 2 Carver tfm-35's Knukonceptz 10ga cables
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,016
    edited August 2007
    New audio term warning!!!!!!!!

    I guess the NAD with two power supplies wired this way is giving him Separately Powered, Passively Filtered Biamping.


    Put that in your signature Phil!!

    Dennis, they use the same power cord so in a sense NOT seperately powered :p:D :)
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • Dennis Gardner
    Dennis Gardner Posts: 4,860
    edited August 2007
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Dennis, they use the same power cord so in a sense NOT seperately powered :p:D :)


    Unicorded...........
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited August 2007
    Chocolate ice cream tastes like chicken :p

    If he hears a difference, there must be a difference. None of you have accounted for the geographical differences in electron composition created by the earth's axial rotation. Depending on where the NAD power supply components are manufactured or the time of the year, they might have the denser molecular properties that are know by many audiophiles to create a sweeter tube-like sound and also enhance the ability of a torridal transformer to supply multiple channels of sound. ;)
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited August 2007
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Vanilla ice cream tastes like chocolate.

    Listen the merits of chocolate ice cream are obvious. It is well documented that most people like chocolate better than vanilla but eat vanilla anyway. Studies have shown that those who actually like chocolate better than vanilla but eat vanilla really love strawberry better but are ashamed to admit it. Now on the other hand a new study has come out that proves without a shadow of a doubt the butter in butter pecan ice cream can be toxic when mixed with the pecans but people who say they like butter pecan ice cream have no problem eating butter almond but with butterscotch syrup on it to counter act the toxicity of the butter in the butter pecan . . .

    . . .so what does this all mean . . . YOU ARE WRONG!

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D:p;)
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited August 2007
    I had to liven things up around here, it was getting too boring!!! :D Anyway, I'm still looking for the magic answer. I don't think anyone's put their finger on the answer yet, just a lot of theory & speculation. Any thoughts??

    You did that already when you said it sounded wonderful!
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,897
    edited August 2007
    Far be it for me or anyone else to tell Phil what he hears.As long as it's good to your ears Phil,rock on bro.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited August 2007
    Cant we all just go mono... ??
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,615
    edited August 2007
    madmax wrote: »
    Cant we all just go mono... ??
    madmax

    Hell NO!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,699
    edited August 2007
    Cant we all just go mono... ??

    Well...with everyone going back to tubes and vinyl, I guess mono is the next logical step. Why not?:p
  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2007
    I'm NOT!!!!:D I have zero interest in going back to the old days.:D
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    Well...with everyone going back to tubes and vinyl, I guess mono is the next logical step. Why not?:p
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,897
    edited August 2007
    I didnt give misinformation. I gave partial information that wasnt complete.

    What I said was -- if you do not cross your amps over before they receive their signal, they are still processing and powering a full 20-20hz signal.

    Now, this is what I learned on this board ages ago, but the gentleman that told me this neglected to tell me that on a tweeter network, the amp will see a 400kohm load. Which, irregardless -- is still powering a 20-20hz signal, just at a nuch higher impedance...

    I didn't give wrong information, you are just being a jerk ;)

    To me, all he is doing is basically taking two 2 channel amps and running it into his speakers. Applying alot more power to each individual part. Which of course is going to give more headroom, but still wont have the advantages of active biamping.

    Makes more sense to me to just get one large amp ---

    But he is definitely applying more power - just not in the sense to me should be called biamping. But whatever. Passive biamping, sure sure...
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.