Stupid Vinyl questions
Ricardo
Posts: 10,636
No; I'm not getting into vinyl; just trying to expand my basic knowledge :cool:
Last time I touched a record was 30 years ago; my dad had a very modest "3 in 1" radio, cassette and turntable, and I remember stacking up records and let them play falling one after the other (I also remember my dad not being too happy about it....)
So here are some very basic questions that I've not seen answered in the 1,000's of threads on vinyl.
1.-auto, semi-auto, manual: I think most TT's nowadays seem to be manual; does this mean that you need to be on top of it so that when the record comes to an end the arm/cartridge doesn't start scratching the label?
2.-Cartridge: MM, MC; any of these is better? Any particular pro/cons?
3.-I've seen arms without a cartridge have a few cables....any basic connection guielines? Any standard color coding? Are cartridges marked as to know where goes what?
4.-My pre does not have a phono stage; I can have one installed, or get a separate one, but I have only one set of inputs in my amp; can I connect the phono to any of the pre's inputs?
5-What are the minimum adjustment options I should look in an arm?
There might be more coming....
Thanks, and I know digital is better.....:eek:
Last time I touched a record was 30 years ago; my dad had a very modest "3 in 1" radio, cassette and turntable, and I remember stacking up records and let them play falling one after the other (I also remember my dad not being too happy about it....)
So here are some very basic questions that I've not seen answered in the 1,000's of threads on vinyl.
1.-auto, semi-auto, manual: I think most TT's nowadays seem to be manual; does this mean that you need to be on top of it so that when the record comes to an end the arm/cartridge doesn't start scratching the label?
2.-Cartridge: MM, MC; any of these is better? Any particular pro/cons?
3.-I've seen arms without a cartridge have a few cables....any basic connection guielines? Any standard color coding? Are cartridges marked as to know where goes what?
4.-My pre does not have a phono stage; I can have one installed, or get a separate one, but I have only one set of inputs in my amp; can I connect the phono to any of the pre's inputs?
5-What are the minimum adjustment options I should look in an arm?
There might be more coming....
Thanks, and I know digital is better.....:eek:
_________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPA
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPA
Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
Post edited by Ricardo on
Comments
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1. Yes
2. MC are generally better
3. I believe there is a standard color coding for tonearm cables. The cartridge comes with specs on which post needs to be connected to which cable.
4. Yes, as long as your Pre doesnt specially handle various line level inputs (i-e I have seen some Pre-amps having special handling for CD input or Tuner input)
5. a) VTF
b). VTA
c). Azimuth
d). Anti Skate-izafar
Goldenear Technology Triton 1 - Benchmark AHB2 - Benchmark LA4 - Auralic Vega - Auralic Aries Mini - Marantz TT-15S1 - Clearaudio Nano -
Now it's been since I was knee high to a duck since I've had Vinyl in MY rig, but their should be a groove on the record that prevents question #1 from happening.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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1. Yes
Hmmmm....I would not enjoy that last track thinking I need to run and raise that arm....treitz3 wrote:Now it's been since I was knee high to a duck since I've had Vinyl in MY rig, but their should be a groove on the record that prevents question #1 from happening.
And I guess this makes a lot of sense.
Thanks guys._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
Crap, I just picked up the Rega P1. I guess with vinyl, you can't be lazy, huh?
Duly noted.;)~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
1. I believe there's a "lead out groove" on the record that the cartridge would play continously until the tonearm is picked up.
2. I don't think there's a big difference in performance between MM and MC cartridges. However, a MC cartridge's output is even lower than that of a MM one. You'd need a phono pre-amp that's compatible with MC cartridges in order to use one.
3. I use a P-mount cartridge, which is a plug-and-play standard. Sorry, can't help you there.
4. You can connect a stand alone phono pre-amp to any of your amp's inputs.
5. Beyond my knowledge there. -
I guess with vinyl, you can't be lazy, huh?
The possiblity of tweaking a turntable is one of the appeals of vinyl....and a complain against CD. -
No; I'm not getting into vinyl; just trying to expand my basic knowledge :cool:
Last time I touched a record was 30 years ago; my dad had a very modest "3 in 1" radio, cassette and turntable, and I remember stacking up records and let them play falling one after the other (I also remember my dad not being too happy about it....)
So here are some very basic questions that I've not seen answered in the 1,000's of threads on vinyl.
1.-auto, semi-auto, manual: I think most TT's nowadays seem to be manual; does this mean that you need to be on top of it so that when the record comes to an end the arm/cartridge doesn't start scratching the label?
Purists, which I am one, claim that manual tables sound better than the other two, less is more! You do need to get the stylus off the record before it starts doinking the label, however, there have been so many time that I've been so lost in the music, that I've not gotten to the tonearm in time to raise it, without any damage being done. I don't recommend allowing that to happen often because it is the cartridge that would become damaged not the label. There is a lead out which allows plenty of time to get the stylus up off the record before hitting the label.2.-Cartridge: MM, MC; any of these is better? Any particular pro/cons?
This is definitely a matter of taste. MC are much more detailed than MMs. It really is like the tubes & SS situation. Tubes are warm as are moving magnet carts, SS is more detailed (IMHO) as are moving coil cartridges.3.-I've seen arms without a cartridge have a few cables....any basic connection guielines? Any standard color coding? Are cartridges marked as to know where goes what?
The bolded portion of your question makes no sense to me so I can't answer that. As far as color coding is concerned the answer is yes. Red and green is the right channel and white and blue are the left channel. Red and white are the hot wires and green and blue are ground. It depends on the manufacturer as to whether they color code the posts. On my Dynavector, Benz, and Sumiko carts the posts are color coded, on my ZYX cart they are not and to add to that confusion the ZYX color are reversed e.g. on the Dynavector, looking at the four posts from the back of the cartridge, the upper left post gets the green wire, lower left the red, upper right the blue wire, lower right the white. The ZYX is exactly the opposite.4.-My pre does not have a phono stage; I can have one installed, or get a separate one, but I have only one set of inputs in my amp; can I connect the phono to any of the pre's inputs?
If you have an external phono stage you can connect it an aux port or tape loop. IF you have a set of phono in jacks with no internal phono stage I would think this is where you would want to connect an outboard phono stage.5-What are the minimum adjustment options I should look in an arm?
This too is a matter of opinion. Vertical Tracking Force (VTF) is extremely important, as is Horizontal Tracking Force (HTF or anti-skating) IMHO. These are the minimum in my opinion. Other adjustements to take into consideration are the cantilever zenith, the stylus azimuth, tonearm damping, plinth and platter leveling and of course a good record clamp to name a few.Thanks, and I know digital is better.....:eek:
I believe a cure for this mental illness is available!!!:eek:
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Not to hijack the thread, but to further clarify one of HtRookie's questions.....
From a engineering standpoint, where is the MM/MC located within the turntable?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
where is the MM/MC located within the turntable?
Now this would give Joe a heart attack.-izafar
Goldenear Technology Triton 1 - Benchmark AHB2 - Benchmark LA4 - Auralic Vega - Auralic Aries Mini - Marantz TT-15S1 - Clearaudio Nano -
Not to hijack the thread, but to further clarify one of HtRookie's questions.....
From a engineering standpoint, where is the MM/MC located within the turntable?
You have moving magnet (MM) & moving coil (MC) cartridges. Because of the differences in output voltage and loading requirements, you need a "phono" stage to deal with these issues. The actuall MM or MC is the cartridge. This is as simple as I can put it without getting into **** that I would direct you to something like Mike Fremer's 21st Century Vinyl.:) -
Hey, forgive me know, it's been a while since I've screwed with vinyl.
OK, if the MM/MC is in the cartridge, and the cartridges that I have seen have four connections, [in theory] you could just switch the cartridge. I have however, recently read that this cannot be done.
Can it? Just curious.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Hey, forgive me know, it's been a while since I've screwed with vinyl.
OK, if the MM/MC is in the cartridge, and the cartridges that I have seen have four connections, [in theory] you could just switch the cartridge. I have however, recently read that this cannot be done.
Can it? Just curious.
You have me thoroughly confused!
When you remove a cartridge from a tonearm, unless it is a P-mount, there will be four tiny wires hanging from the tonearm. The fours posts are part of the cartridge. You can switch any cartridge style out as long as you have the electronics to contend with the differences in MM & MC carts. -
Joe,
Question 3: (wires used to connect the cartridge)The bolded portion of your question makes no sense to me so I can't answer that.
Thanks for your aswers._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
Sorry, H.I.. I have the electronics to do both. Not meaning to confuse. I'm a little confused myself at the moment. What is a P-mount?
Is that what the post above is? [edit] I have a P-mount.
New question. What is the mounting on the above tonearm called?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Hey, forgive me know, it's been a while since I've screwed with vinyl.
OK, if the MM/MC is in the cartridge, and the cartridges that I have seen have four connections, [in theory] you could just switch the cartridge. I have however, recently read that this cannot be done.
Can it? Just curious.
The phono pre-amp will do the "processing", if you will, on the signal output of the MM/MC cartridge. Yes, you can just switch out the cartridges but you will need to tell the phono pre-amp what it's processing, MM or MC. And that can be done with the flick of a switch. -
The Unico P I owned...
you had to remove the cover of the chassis and switch jumpers internally to make the switch from MM to MC. I take it that's not the norm...I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore -
What is a P-mount?
P-mount is a standardized type of phono cartridge that's designed to be plug-and-play. No anti-skid to set or any other adjustments. P-mount used to be quite popular for inexpensive turntable, but it's now only appearing on inexpensive Technics TTs. There used to be a lot of choices for P-mount cartridges as well, from Sumiko to Shure.
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Joe,
Question 3: (wires used to connect the cartridge)
Thanks for your aswers.
Ric in this case I would have to say that the blue wire is a common ground which in my mind lends to great confusion as far as signal separation. -
What is the mounting on the above tonearm called?
Abby something . . . abnormal!!!:eek: I don't know the answer to this. A P mount allows you to plug your cartridge directly into the tonearm without having to putz around with the four (well three maybe) wires. -
No vinyl question is stupid. CD's, now thats a different issue.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
What button on the front goes to the next track? "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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I usually just stomp the ground. That sends it to the next track.I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you.Herman Blume - Rushmore
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get a fully automatic turntable and be very happy you did. i love mine.. i don't have to babysit it, till that side is done playing.PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
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danger boy wrote: »get a fully automatic turntable and be very happy you did. i love mine.. i don't have to babysit it, till that side is done playing.
Shoot I'm such a fanatic that I don't use the finger hook that came with the tonearm!!!:D
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What the hell good is vinyl without a remote??? "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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On the MM/MC thing, I seem to remember that MM cartridges typically have non removable styli and are much more expensive than MC cartridges. I also remember back in the 70s nodding off while leaving a record on the platter with my Pioneer PL 2 fully manual turntable and never had the needle get onto the label. Features- antiskate at the least. A pitch adjustment (speed adjustment) is good. Occasionally some type of light will be included to help set the speed exactly via the strobe effect of the small squares the will be around the edge of some platters. Some turntables will include a capacitance adjustment to fine tune for various patch cable lengths. Color coding- all the cartridges I have seen have a colored dot at the connection pins corresponding to the wire colors. I have found that there are at least a couple different diameter pins. The Benz cartridge I just bought required a bit of a squeeze to compress the female connectors on the tone arm wires of my turntable to fit snugly. There's a website, preamps.com or something -put phono preamp into Google and you'll find it- that sells quite a few different ones. They also sell a nifty electronic scale with fine resolution to accurately measure tracking force at the stylus. I use a Vincent phono preamp I bought from audioadvisor.com that I am very happy with. A few other things to look for, in my opinion: a hefty platter because it will be less likely to suffer from minute speed variations once up to speed. A good mat on top of the platter. A neat test is to drop a marble on the mat and see if it hits and stays (good) or bounces (bad). I like belt drive turntables better than direct drive. No special reason, I just think a direct drive unit with a less than high end motor will have cheesy bearings/bushings in the motor that will eventually cause rotational instability. I like a semi automatic turntable where it lifts the arm at the end of a record, but you still have to start it manually. Another nice feature is the lever that lifts/lowers the tone arm. Some turntables have a weight that lays atop the record and centers on the spindle. This helps hold a warped record flat and gives some additional stability by adding to the platter mass. Good shock absorbing feet are another plus as is a good, solid base platform. Again, check out the stuff at AudioAdvisor.com for a good overview of what's out there. Most importantly -SHOP for prices!The Beloved System:
Parasound Halo P3 Preamp
Parasound Halo T3 AM/FM Tuner
Grant Audio Tube Buffer
ADC Sound Shaper II IC Graphic Equalizer
Polk XRT12 XM Satellite Radio Receiver
2 Carver TFM 35x Power Amps
Harmon Kardon T45 Turntable w\ Benz MC 20E Phono Cartridge
Vincent Phono Preamp (not enough gain in the Parasound Phono In)
Cambridge Audio 640C V2 CD Player
Nakamichi BX300 Cassette Deck
Polk RTi 12 Main Speakers
2 Polk PSW 1000 Subwoofers -
I always like to suggest to those who are interested in vinyl. Buy a vintage player from a local shop who has refurbished it and offers a small guarantee. Ask them to set it up for you. Tracking, VTF, HTF, alignment etc. Most reputable places will do this. Get a reasonable cartridge. Buy a MM like a Audio Technica 440 MLa or a Shure 97e. These cartridges cost about $75. A decent, vintage turntable with build in strobe should cost a couple of hundred bucks. If your receiver or pre-amp doesn't have phono inputs, buy an inexpensive preamp or a cheap vintage receiver with preouts. Connect your table to the inputs of the vintage receiver then connect the preamp outputs to an aux input on your preamp. This can be cheaper than buying a $300 or more (and I mean lot more) phono preamp. Borrow or buy some decent vinyl, clean it and give it a spin. See how it sound on your system. Make sure that you get some good clean records that are good recordings to give the vinyl a fair shake. Listen to it for several months. At this point you should be able to decide if you want to spend some dough to get into some better equipment.
I personally have never got past using the vintage equipment. I have an old Marantz 6300 table, setup, aligned, balanced, etc. I have a decent AudioTechnica ML 155C and a vintage Marantz preamp and a big Marantz amp. I play the vinyl through a big pair of modified Carver AL-111s. It sounds wonderful. I've got less than $400 in my table and I think it sounds as good as some $2K rigs that I've heard. Other more expensive rigs have sounded better than mine, but for the price, I can't justify the investment.
Buy what you can afford, take some time to learn and enjoy the experience of vinyl. If you haven't used it much. The technology is very unique and can be a lot of fun. That's what this hobby is all about, living, learning and having fun. Good luck!Carl -
Nice write up Carl.
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All vinyl questions are stupid.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
