DAC Processors

auto_pilot

I was told I had a Crystal DSP as my DAC converter in my AVR. Is this good? I've seen other brands like the Cirrus Logic, Burr Brown, and Wolfson (???)...What is generally considered the best?

venomclan

I do not think that you will find a "best", as each does its job usually well. And each type has many different models. My Marantz CD5400 has a Crystal dac, and I like the sound. I used to have a Cambridge Audio 640C with the Wolfson dac, and I liked the sound. My current Denon 2900I beleive has a Burr Brown and this is a good player. I now use a Bel Canto dac bypassing everything.

If you like the sound, who cares. If you do not, there are other changes you can make with your system that will yield better results than a dac change imho.
V

auto_pilot

In the line of components...where does the Bel Canto come in?

heiney9

IMO for superior sound repo an effective DAC with Burr Brown chipsets sound best to me. Although in the end they are only as good as the design they are used in.

I've listened to many units with Wolfson dac's and I just don't feel they are as musical.

It's really a moot point because you need to listen and decide for yourself.

H9

venomclan

auto_pilot wrote: »

In the line of components...where does the Bel Canto come in?

Hard to compare apples to apples because I did not own/ these all at the same time. I use the Denon as a transport only. When I got the Bel Canto, I compared it to the Marantz and preferred the Bel Canto. It was more musical and detailed (as it should be for over 4x the price), but not a night and day diference. It takes critical listening. New speakers make the most difference by far, followed by the amp imho. I found most CD players to be more alike than different.
V

sucks2beme

The DAC makes a difference, but the opamps/power supply seem
to make an even greater difference. I've heard the same DAC sound good or like crap. I've started playing with modding to tweak for better sound.
I've been looking at external DACS, but haven't found that one killer one
at a good price.

auto_pilot

Thanks all...you probably don't remember but I've been doing some A/B switching between my DVD player in bypass analog mode...and as PCM sent to my AVR to do the processing to analog...to find out which sound I like best. I've found that I like certain things about both ways...just not landed on one. And to see if a dedicated CD player is worth the investment.

I've also come to the conclusion that you'd spend almost a year listening to all the setups...that's why I like to get an opinion from other people who have listened to different setups.

venomclan

In my travels and tests, I find that synergy wins overall. I have heard some mega-buck systems that sound like crap. And budget ones that made me do a double take, they sounded much better than they should have at that price point. When I went back to basics and redesigned my rig, I first looked at the anchor of my system - Speakers. Then find your amp that best mates. Then fill in the rest of the pieces and experiment. Hopefully it will end someday
V

heiney9

venomclan wrote: »

Hard to compare apples to apples because I did not own/ these all at the same time. I use the Denon as a transport only. When I got the Bel Canto, I compared it to the Marantz and preferred the Bel Canto. It was more musical and detailed (as it should be for over 4x the price), but not a night and day diference. It takes critical listening. New speakers make the most difference by far, followed by the amp imho. I found most CD players to be more alike than different.
V

This is the crux of your statement. Many cdp's do sound very similar; however most stand alone DAC's sound quite different in my experience.

I'll aslo add that you should have many of the things that Venom mentioned in place before you start hunting for a top notch DAC. DAC's tend to have more sublte influence in the audio chain which can sometimes only be appreciated after upgrading other things in the signal path first

auto_pilot

That's the thing...I would like it to end some day...there are so many different speakers, processors, wires, amps...:eek:

You could dedicate your whole life (and cash) to this "hobby."

But yes...speakers are the anchors of the system...I wish someone would have told me this earlier...I think I rushed things. I went to Magnolia and heard some Monitor Audios...very nice. I know this is a Polk Forum...but I'm sure most people here admire other speaker brands as well:D

steveinaz

It's not so much the brand of DAC, as it is the implemenation used and final analog output.

rskarvan

The DAC is where music starts. Everything before it is just ones and zero's. Everything after the DAC is just signal processing.

The DAC is the one and only SOURCE for digital music.

heiney9

rskarvan wrote: »

The DAC is where music starts. Everything before it is just ones and zero's. Everything after the DAC is just signal processing.

The DAC is the one and only SOURCE for digital music.

What do digits (1's & 0's) sound like..........that's what I thought, until it's converted back to analog it means nothing. I agree with Steve 100%, it's all in the implementation and analog output. That's not to say the digital portion isn't important (jitter and adequate word length, etc.) but the final analog output is really what seperates a good dac from a great dac.

I know; a simplton apporach because linearity in the digital domain PS regulation and many other factors are also very important in a good DAC both in the digital and analog portion.

P.S. Just re-read your post you and I are on the same page, I had to read it again to get the meaning.

H9

auto_pilot

steveinaz wrote: »

It's not so much the brand of DAC, as it is the implemenation used and final analog output.

Is the implementation then different from maker to maker?

tonyb

auto_pilot wrote: »

Is the implementation then different from maker to maker?

UH-HUH!!

Lots of good advice here......Main one being before looking for the ultimate DAC,get all your other pieces in place.You can read up,audition,till your 100 yrs. old and not cover everything.Bottom line,as always,get whats good to your ears,and wallet.

Gaara

You are just looking at various brands to, even individual chips have different implementations.

For example the Philips TDA1545 is a popular chip in external DACS, off the top of my head the units that use it include:

MHDT Paradisea/+ (tubed dacs, so you can tube roll to)
MHDT Constantine/+
DIY Paradise Monica II
DIY Paradise USB Monica
Ack Dack (Many different versions 1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2 and options)

Thats one chip and 5 different units with different implementations...and thats only the ones I have tried!

Systems

auto_pilot wrote: »

Is the implementation then different from maker to maker?

Yes even if two different companies used the same DAC chips they will likely have completely different analog output stages and power supply schemes .One may use a 10 cent opamp and the other a discrete transistor opamp or even use tubes.The power supply is also very important and some designers put considerable effort towards it's design.
Like Steve said the relative quality of the analog stage will be a big part of the sound quality achieved.

auto_pilot

Seems like 31 flavors going on here...:eek:

So...let me ask...Why have a dedicated CD Player???? What do you gain there? I've heard reviews on various components (AVR's, CD Players, Universal Players, Speakers)...and they say certain comments...How do you distinguish what comes from the CD player, the reciever, the speakers???

I suppose having a reference systems helps.

venomclan

To truely test gear, all things must be equal. It helps to be familiar with the sounnd your gear normally puts out, and see how it changes when new stuff is introduced. A dedicated CD player is usually built better than some universal players in general. Dacs are usually of better quality also. Better damping, jitter control etc. But not in all cases. Forget about changing everything, find your anchor and build from there, otherwise new things you add may undo previous additions - Synergy. Or just get an Ipod
V

auto_pilot

I do have an ipod...and I'am suprised by the clarity and openess of the sound everytime I listen to it.

Yes...must find my anchor.

steveinaz

auto_pilot wrote: »

So...let me ask...Why have a dedicated CD Player???? What do you gain there? I've heard reviews on various components (AVR's, CD Players, Universal Players, Speakers)...and they say certain comments...How do you distinguish what comes from the CD player, the reciever, the speakers???

I suppose having a reference systems helps.

At the end of the day, it's what sounds best to you. Don't get too wrapped around the axle with digital over-load. If you stick with popular, well reviewed examples of either standalone CD players or DAC's, you'll be in good shape.

I think the reason most people hook a dedicated CDP into an external DAC is because of lack of reasonably priced transports. There's not alot of transports to choose from, then those that are available are usually pretty pricey.

Some people opt to get a good external DAC, then use a universal machine such as a DVD Player that has SACD, DVD, and redbook CD capability. They route the Redbook/DVD playback thru the DAC and run the SACD portion via analog RCA's. I did this for awhile with my Denon 2910. I had the redbook/DVD sound sent via digital coax to my DAC1, analog out on my DAC1 to the "CD" input on my preamp; and my SACD outputs connected to "SACD" input on my preamp.

heiney9

auto_pilot wrote: »

I do have an ipod...and I'am suprised by the clarity and openess of the sound everytime I listen to it.

Yes...must find my anchor.

If you think an Ipod sounds good, you ain't heard nothing yet!! I Pod's have no place in a reference system, IMO. If you seriously think that it sounds good then you really don't need to spend a lot or do a lot of research on the perfect DAC because your source is inferior. I say this not to be arrogant or to put you down because there is so much more to great audio than the Ipod.:)

auto_pilot

heiney9 wrote: »

If you think an Ipod sounds good, you ain't heard nothing yet!! I Pod's have no place in a reference system, IMO. If you seriously think that it sounds good then you really don't need to spend a lot or do a lot of research on the perfect DAC because your source is inferior. I say this not to be arrogant or to put you down because there is so much more to great audio than the Ipod.:)

I was half joking...there is no "tounge and cheek" smiley on this site. The Ipod is good for what it is...I'm not going to spend hundreds of dollars on headphones, etc to make my mobile listening better...that's not the purpose of an Ipod.:) My money would rather be better spent on my rig at home.

BTW...I'm still new to the whole audio thing...I'm still figuring out what I like and dislike...what warm means...what bright means...what cool means...coloring...British sound versus Japanese sound...forward versus reticient...sound stage...cupping...and all these other terms. It would help if I had some type of reference guide of descriptions so that I knew what the terms mean. And I consider myself to have better than average hearing ability...I didn't spend a lot of friday nights at the local club...or go to a lot of rock/rap concerts...so my hearing is still in pretty good shape.