Crazy French

gidrah

That's cool. I didn't know if it was that or audiofool (for buying such crap).

madmax

rlw,
My current setup consists of two Manley Lab-100 monoblock EL-34 tube amps, a pair of Polk SRS-SDA speakers, Audioquest type 4 speaker cable (bi-wired), medium grade interconnects (next upgrade) and a Luxman CD player which has a tube preamp which I use to control volume of the system with. I use a Tripplite LCR-2400 signal conditioner for ac power. Oh yea, and a magic brick sitting on top of the CD player and Vibrapods on the CD and power amps.

I know I'll need a phono pre-amp section and probably a standard preamp.

I listen to all types of music: Jazz, Rap, Rock, Bluegrass, weird stuff, you name it. Not much classical because I don't have a clue what I would like. About the only thing I really don't like is James Taylor or Jimmy Buffet type stuff.

I like a very large dynamic range in music. CD's tend to offer a lot of dynamic range so I'm afraid that may be a problem. I like a good balance of tone. I like bass to be lifelike, not loud. I like the sound to be real. If a mistake is made I like it to jump out at you, not be lost in the mix. I like the treble to be smooth and not harsh at all. I tend to like the treble volume a little lower than normal.

I have about 100 LPs, many with ticks and pops which have been played many times with cheap cartridges and never cleaned. I plan on buying whatever new good quality recordings I can find.

My startup budget for this project SHOULD be around $1000 to get started and more as needed but I'm open. If more is needed to get MUCH better performance or to pick up on a REAL deal then I would probably spend it. I do not mind used equipment. As a matter of fact I prefer used equipment at half price.

I like to upgrade. I want something upgradeable. Actually, I find that buying a used system which someone else has already done the upgrades is normally best and cheapest.


Thanks for the opinions about the Scout. That is what I needed to know. Given the above, what sounds like a good setup? By the way, I like the cool things like the motor sitting off to the side, non-standard designs, you know, the wow factor stuff.

Thanks!
madmax

rlw

madmax,

Nice system! Even though you prefer a bit less treble, I'm thinking you've probably got that already with the SDA's and the tube amps. The following is based on that...

One thing to keep in mind: the differences between a $1,000.00 TT and a $10,000.00 TT are much larger than the differences between a $1,000.00 CDP and a $10,000.00 CDP. TT's, arms, carts, and phono stages continue to yield substantial gains as you pay more.

The dynamic range of LPs on a good analog rig will quickly embarrass CD's. I don't think you have any concerns there.

I think at $1,000.00 you'll have to choose your compromises carefully...but you can do well.

One thing that you don't mention is what kind of floor and rack you'll be placing your rig on: that makes a huge difference. For example, I'm tempted to recommend that you consider a used Linn LP-12. They're renowned for their PRaT (pace, rhythm, and timing) and neutral presentation. However, they are a suspended table - and if you have a "flexy" rack or a planked floor, you will have problems setting up the Linn.

You might have to consider a wall mount stand - and that might not do it. If, however, you're on a concrete slab, the Linn would work fine.

The Linn is a truly high-end table - toss in a budget cart, and a budget phono stage, and you have the start of a fine system. Depending on the arm that comes with it, you can upgrade to an Origins Live Modded Rega arm, a better cart, a better phono stage...

At another end of the spectrum are Basis tables. You can get into the Basis line at the low end, and upgrade until you have the top-end model. If you notice, there's not a lot of used Basis tables on the market - b/c of their upgradeability. They're a great choice, known for being all-around good tables - they are very neutral.

I'm heavily biased towards Michell tables, owning an Orbe SE. You could hunt for a Gyro SE - and that can be upgraded a lot...power supply, platter, motor... The Michell's are finicky like the Linn wrt to what they're place on - but sound fantastic, in my book. That might push your budget a bit, but they have a very high drool factor. Great PRaT, and great bass.

Another way to consider going: consider an Music Hall MMF series table. While the table itself isn't upgradeable, you can still upgrade the cartridge and phono stage. The MMF-7 gets raved about, and I see a dealer demo w/ cart on Audiogon for 790.00 (Underwoodwally is a great guy - I've bought from him, absolutely trustworthy, he's a great dealer). I'm mentioning this as a good way to stick real close to your budget.

Whew. Well, hope that gives you a couple of ideas.

madmax

Thanks rlw,
I've been anxiously awaiting your reply! A wall mount stand is a possibility. My living space revolves around audio, not the other way around like many. I've been looking at some of the tables you have mentioned. The Michell or Basis look almost like a no brainer to me. I'm sure I'll figure it out but what is PRaT?
I will look into the MMF series as well. Feel free to mention anything you see going at a good price.
Please, keep babbling! It may be a few months before I splurge, but I am.
Thanks again,
madmax

rlw

PRaT = "Pace, Rhythm, and Timing".

The only problem with the Michell or the Basis is that you will definitely blow your initial budget.

But what the hell, that's what deficit spending is for, right?

madmax

rlw,
What does this look like? Which tonearm would I want?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1384753215

Thanks,
madmax

rlw

That looks like analog erotica...I warned you, your budget is shot to hell!

I'd ask the seller for a serial number, and contact John Michell and make sure that it's legit. FYI, there are no official "MK 1, MK2, MK3" versions of the table - Michell doesn't do that. However, a lot of people do make those distinctions, because the changes from one generation to the next were so big. But don't be taken aback if John tells you it's not a "Mark 3".

Arms: John voices his tables with Rega arms and SME arms...I'm pretty sure the Rega uses the same armboard as the SME. I'd suggest starting off the a Rega, maybe splurge for the Origins Live Fully Modified Rega 250. Great budget arm to get started on...

That leaves you looking for a cart and a phono stage and setup tools. An Audio Technica OC-9 cart would be a great choice; a Rega Elys would be good as well.

Where are we at with the budget now?

madmax

rlw,
I'm not worried about the MK 3 designation. If you check the Michell website they refer to these designations in the "gallery". MK 3 is the current version according to that. It does have the AC motor but it has the optional power supply as well. Budget? Oh yea, that. Well? I'm still not sure I am willing to spend that much for something that may not surpass my CD's. I'm wondering about SACD's and DVD audio as well. I'm pretty serious but I'm still open. I would rather spend enough to be happy than to spend almost that much just to leave it sit there unused.
I'm confused.
madmax

rlw

Originally posted by madmax001
rlw,
If you check the Michell website they refer to these designations in the "gallery". MK 3 is the current version according to that.unused.
I'm confused.
madmax

Some trivia for ya': The website is maintained by Werner Ogiers, who is not an employee of Michell, believe it or not. I've included a link to one of Werner's posts on another forum below where he explains that the "MK" designations are a convenient fiction by some folks, and not recognized by John Michell.

If you go to that other forum, and do a search for posts by Werner, you'll quickly learn a bewildering amount about the Gyros and their upgrades.

Why are you confused? It's probably all that digital tripe that passes for music rattling around in your brain, madmax. You need a listening session with a properly setup TT so that you can clearly hear the music. Once you hear clearly, there will be no question.

The best example I can give: I have an LP that is way off-center, so much so that there is noticeable wow-and-flutter as the arm moves all over the place. I have the same recording on CD. I'd rather listen to the LP, b/c at least there's music there.




Werner's Post

Paul Connor

rlw,

Hi, and thanks for the input on vinyl. Its good to hear I'm not the only one out there still listening to LP's. My record collection from the 70's remains intact and remarkably well preserved considering the many moves I've made and the wild years. Of course I buy and listen to cd's, but my preference is still vinyl. It is amazing what you can buy out there today in new pressings.

My rig consists of a Rega Planar 3 turntable, a couple of Carver amps, with Polk SDA 1.2's. For anyone thinking of adding a turntable, the Rega offers a very affordable entry. The Elys cartridges provide amazing sound for the price. Here is a link to their site.

http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

madmax: yes they do sound better than the Pioneer tables. I had the best turntable Marantz made and it could not come close to the Rega. There are many others out there. Keep an eye on ebay. If I see anything, I will post it. Good luck.

Paul

madmax

010101001001 must make brain think analog...

In my heart I'm thinking there is a new (or maybe old) world out there but I keep thinking of the ticks, pops, rumbles etc. Lets say this: I will probably take the plunge so long as I think I can re-sell the equipment for close to what I paid. This is one reason that something like the Michell (used) seems to make sense to me.

So an LP can sound as good or better than a CD? I'll take your word for it. I know everything has to be set up properly and the "system" must work together so don't get uptight, I wouldn't hold you to anything. If I have to get part of the system now and part later that is fine. Anticipation is OK for awhile and anyway, I cannot just go out and get the table, arm, cart, preamp, acc etc all right now anyway. I'm thinking I'll just pick a deal on each item as I find it and when it comes together it does. Keep me informed of any deals you see. I really like the Michell tables.
madmax

rlw

Originally posted by madmax001
010101001001 must make brain think analog...

In my heart I'm thinking there is a new (or maybe old) world out there but I keep thinking of the ticks, pops, rumbles etc

So an LP can sound as good or better than a CD?

Keep me informed of any deals you see. I really like the Michell tables.
madmax

LP's simply blow away CD's - it ain't even close.

Almost all of us fell for it, for a number of reasons we were ripe for the picking: perfect sound forever. Dealers love digital, b/c analog done right is effin' hard: nobody wants to demo a single freakin' cartridge to somebody when it takes so long to setup. As listeners, we became enchanted with the obvious background silence, and were immediately sold.

A buddy who's favorite CD is Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" grew up digital. He came over one night, and we compared a regular CD of WYWH with a limited edition Super Bit Mapped version I have; clearly, the SBM version whomped the regular CD.

Then I put on a standard LP of WYWH - not audiophile, I don't even know what generation the pressing was, I picked it up for $4.00 someplace. The LP so definitively trounced the SBM CD it wasn't funny...and not just to my ears.

One of the things a better table will do is completely eliminate rumble: with the Gyro, you won't hear the motor, at all. Likewise, the better the table/arm/cart, the less surface noise you will hear - this phenomenon is something that everybody who gets into high-end tables is surprised by, but it's true. One of the comments I get about our system is that "It's as quiet as CD." Sure, I have a few LP's that are noisy - but not many. Most that are noisy get cleaned, and then they're fine.

Take it a step at a time: get a good table, an entry-level arm + cart, and an affordable phono stage. You'll love it - and then just wait until you get a better phono stage: you'll stay up all night listening to everything you missed.

Once again, if you ever find yourself close to Cleveland, you have my sympathies and an open invitation to come over and listen.

rlw

rlw

Originally posted by Paul Connor
rlw,

Hi, and thanks for the input on vinyl. Its good to hear I'm not the only one out there still listening to LP's. My record collection from the 70's remains intact and remarkably well preserved considering the many moves I've made and the wild years. Of course I buy and listen to cd's, but my preference is still vinyl. It is amazing what you can buy out there today in new pressings.

My rig consists of a Rega Planar 3 turntable, a couple of Carver amps, with Polk SDA 1.2's. For anyone thinking of adding a turntable, the Rega offers a very affordable entry. The Elys cartridges provide amazing sound for the price. Here is a link to their site.

http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

madmax: yes they do sound better than the Pioneer tables. I had the best turntable Marantz made and it could not come close to the Rega. There are many others out there. Keep an eye on ebay. If I see anything, I will post it. Good luck.

Paul

Hi Paul.

You're not alone, man! Nice rig you have. I do have one question: do you find the Rega arm tough to setup?

I lost my original LP collection to my first wife. It's funny, I lived without music for a while, and then when I got back into it, CD was the only thing around. All the time I listened to CD's I kept wondering why listening to music just wasn't as fun as it used to be, but I figured it was one of those age-related things.

Then I got back into vinyl at the urging of some folks, and realized what was missing: CD's might be "perfect sound" but as sources of music, they suck. Since then - about 2 years ago - I've grown my LP stash to about 1200 titles, and have hardly bought any CD's. I have one friend who has over 20,000 records (LPs + 45s), and sitting down to listen with him is a hoot...his system is not audiophile-approved, but it's still music that we hear.

There's more titles being released on LP than on SACD and DVD-A combined...


Keep the faith, Paul.

madmax

rlw,
I put a bid in on the previous link I posted. I think I might be into this vinyl stuff. If it really is better than CD's then I don't mind the cost.
If you don't mind, what differences would you think is noticable between maybe the Rega 250 or similar tonearm VS maybe the SME 309 (I kinda fell in love with the looks of it) or something similar? Not to press you for exact info but just in general. Also, I looked for the OC-9 cart but only found some foreign language links.

BTW, thanks for the quick info to get me up to speed. I realize it will take awhile to build up a knowledge base from reading other forums and really appreciate the "TT for dummies" advice.
madmax

Paul Connor

rlw,

In response to your question, I really didn't have much trouble setting up the tonearm on my Planar. A friend came over and we spent about an hour getting it just right. Once we got it leveled and the tonearm weight set, I haven't messed with it much. The Rega turntables are extremely simple in design and very user friendly. I did buy a new Elys cartridge this year, and it was a simple change.

I experienced digital music in much the same way. In the late 80's I bougt my first cd player, but didn't enjoy the music as much. With me, I think a lot of it has to do with the process of handling the lp. The size, feel and familiarity of it. There is just something about handling, cleaning and placing the tonearm to vinyl. I know many others who have said the same thing. Perhaps I am just an old f'er and got too set in my ways young. I will say that for the music I listen to, vinyl seems to lend a much richer and warmer quality to music. I do not pretend to be a very knowlegable listener, but for my taste, it is a good fit. With all that said, I do own a decent collection of cd's that I listen to on a regular basis and they are ok, but for my favorites, I listen to LP's. The collection currently stands somewhere around 2000 titles. My wife and kids consider me maladjusted.

I can relate to the ex thing. I had to literally wrestle my ex for the record collection first time around. I won out, though. Sorry for your first loss. That's cold for a woman to run off with a guy's record collection. I think it would be better if she ran off with your brother.

Here is a link you should look at. You will like it.

Paul

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinylanachronist.html

raycomics

if you R and "old ****". (like me)

Remember that great old song that you had back in the day that is now on any new Car commercial on TV now?.

Well, the 1 you had is pretty scatched up now, cause you were in sort of a "Haze" most of the time back then.

You go online to try to find it now, and guess what, it's seriously out of print, and you can't get it on CD.

But hey, there is 1, but it is an import. Hey, its only gonna cost you $60 plus shipping!

What to do?

Visit your friendly neighborhood Thirft Store, and hey, sitting right there between the Old Shoes and Old Audio Stuff is THE Album you R lookin for, and guess what, NO Scratches and the Album looks like it was brought just yesterday.

So, for $.50 or $1.00, you can relive priceless memories "Haze" Free!


This is a True Story.

rlw

No problem with getting me to talk about vinyl/analog...I just hope some of this is useful and gets you turned on to listening more.

RE: SME 309 v. Rega 250. Tough question, b/c you have to consider the system as a whole. The SME is going to be easier to setup [The first time I setup an SME arm, it took me all of 15 minutes, with no help from anybody]. The Rega will take longer, no doubt. The SME is going to give you easier out of the box vertical tracking angle (VTA) adjustment; but the Rega has some add on's available that help with that.

Some folks feel that the new version of the SME-309 greatly outperforms the older version. SME arms traditionally are thought to be a bit big in the bass - but that's due more to tonearm/TT matchup. The SME arms are a high-mass, rigid arm, and they transmit a *lot* of energy back to the plinth - and if you're plinth can't handle it, resonances will occur that bloat the bass. The problem with bass bloat is that it affects all other areas of the frequency spectrum with a "blurriness"...

One big factor in favor of the Rega: there's a huge aftermarket modification cottage industry for these arms. SME you pretty much buy and live with...


Check out the following link for some cart info.


NeedleDoctor

rlw

Thanks for the comments on Rega setup. I'm pretty firmly in the SME camp, and setup is extremely easy on those arms.

I agree with the whole physical part of playing LP's. Plus, every time friends come over, they are clearly attracted to leafing through the vinyl collection and we almost always end up listening to vinyl at their request.

RE: the link. Boon (Marc Phillips) is a good guy. He's been preaching the wisdom of vinyl for quite some time. He loves Rega, too...if I recall, he owned/owns a Rega 25 as his primary table, with a Benz Micro cart.

RE: ex's. Can't live with'em, can't hunt 'em down & drag 'em naked behind the Jeep for a couple miles through gravel.

madmax

rlw,
So there are high mass arms and low mass arms. The high mass arms require the plinth to be more massive? Are the Michells reasonable for this or do you still want a lower mass arm? The other thing I'm wondering about are MC vs MM carts. I think the MM ones have an output of .4mv whereas the MC have 4mv outputs. Do you need another stage of preamp for them? For either type you need a phono section, is that correct?

Someone already outbid me on that GyroDec with Orbe and motor/supply upgrade. It is at $1150 now. Is it worth taking the price higher? I had $1125 on it and the buy it now was $1500. I've heard these tables will last two lifetimes so it makes sense to me to buy used. Any opinion?
madmax

hoosier21

Any opinion? here is my opinion, your f_cking nuts. There are two types of phono preamps, one for MM and one for MC, The NAD gear I have has a switch for both types on the back of the preamp. If you are looking at getting stand alone Phono preamp, be sure it matches the cartridge you are buying or plan to buy, or get one that will do both MM/MC

madmax

Well duh! Why don't you tell me something I didn't know. Besides, I'm "mad", that is different than "f_cking nuts".

On the bottlehead forum they are about to offer a tube kit called the "seduction" which looks pretty cool for $200 or so. Check it out.

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Seduction/seduction.htm

hoosier21

I forget there is a difference.

rlw

Originally posted by madmax001
rlw,
So there are high mass arms and low mass arms. The high mass arms require the plinth to be more massive? Are the Michells reasonable for this or do you still want a lower mass arm? The other thing I'm wondering about are MC vs MM carts. I think the MM ones have an output of .4mv whereas the MC have 4mv outputs. Do you need another stage of preamp for them? For either type you need a phono section, is that correct?

Someone already outbid me on that GyroDec with Orbe and motor/supply upgrade. It is at $1150 now. Is it worth taking the price higher? I had $1125 on it and the buy it now was $1500. I've heard these tables will last two lifetimes so it makes sense to me to buy used. Any opinion?
madmax

Well, now, it depends on who ya talk to. If you talk to the folks at Sumiko or SME, they'll tell you that in order to use one of their arms, you have to put on a massy plinth.

If you talk to John Michell, he'll tell you that the Gyro is fine with it, due to kinetic energy/mass.

I use an SME-V on my Orbe, and I have no problems - bass is not an issue.

The Rega is more of a medium-mass arm, so it might work out better on the Gyro.

The other parameter at play: the compliance of the cartridge. A low compliance cartridge requires a high-mass tonearm; that combo - a "stiff" suspension behind the needle - sends more energy through the arm that needs to be damped.

MM carts have a higher output - by far. They also tend to have a more rolled-off high-end, and most high-enders agree that they don't image/soundstage as well a MC...and MC's tend to be the lower-compliance carts.

A high-compliance cart - like the Shure V15-MVxr - will *probably* track better, at least in theory. That's a good argument for them. It's a MM. A good argument for MM is the higher output: 3mV for the Shure.

You will need a phono section. If you go with a MC cart, say a "medium output" of .3mV, you should plan on your phono stage have 65dB of gain. You can get by with less - but you will sacrifice some dynamics, IMO. 65dB is an assload of gain, and you need a quiet phono stage to do it cleanly. Move to a lower ouput MC, and you might want 78dB of gain, which is an assload with an **** added. Then, noise becomes a real issue.

A MM, at 3mV, will only need 45dB of gain. Much more reasonable, and many phono stages can adequately handle that.

Other factors in the phono stage are resistance (loading) and capacitance (impedance). You'll want to be able to change the loading for sure to find what works best for your taste.

The BottleHead Seduction should be a good kit. They're great folks there - really sharp, really sincere. Note that the Seduction alone will not give you enough gain to run a medium or low output MC cart. I do like that they're not trying to do active RIAA equalization - that shows they know (well, duh) the limits of the simple tube circuit, and aren't pushing things too hard.

You could, of course, add a head-amp/step-up transformer between the cart's output and the Bottleheads input to get more gain. That's a good solution, and pretty inexpensive if bought used.

A great starting point might the Gyro with a Rega 250 arm and an MM cartridge. That will get you started nicely.

That Gyro sounds like a good deal. Just remember that the Gyro is going to be a bit picky about it's support - it needs something firm and stable under it. Don't even think about a flexy rack.

Oh, and keep in mind that it is a suspended table, and is "delicate" in comparison to non-suspended. Not a big deal, but some folks can't deal with it as it does bounce easily.

I can't imagine you'd be disappointed w/in those constraints, and you'll probably be able to recoup your cash if you decide to sell.

rlw

Check it out - could be you

madmax

It will be at some point. Soon. Now just to score the goods! I have been talked into giving it a try. I hope I can find enough vinyl to make it worthwhile. I wonder if my 1.2's will be limiting given the rest of my system? This audio stuff sure is a vicious circle. I'm pretty set on a table from Michell given what I have read. $1000, what was I thinking!
madmax

Paul Connor

madmax,

You will not have trouble finding excellent vinyl. Be careful, though when buying on ebay. Near mint can mean anything. With that said, though, I have bought a lot of albums on ebay that were in some cases better than described. These days I try to stay with new pressings and sealed copies. It removes the unknown factor. Here is an excellent source in Salina Kansas. They are great guys too.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/

What do you mean by your 1.2's being limited? Is this in reference to lp's?

Paul

madmax

Thanks for the link. With the 1.2's I just meant that the amplification and turntable setup will be excellent and I hope the 1.2's are up to the same standards to produce the class of sound I'm looking for. I think they will be but there are a lot of really good speakers out there.
madmax

madmax

I just scored the Michell GyroDec with Orbe and motor/controller upgrade for $1475 today. I was hoping to get it for $1150 but oh well. I'm hurtin' right now! I still need a tonearm, cartridge, record cleaner, preamp, assorted gagets etc! I'll look for a tonearm next. I'm thinking a rega 250, 300, 600 or SME something or other. I just spent my buget so I've got some time to look right now. Lucky for me there are 3 paychecks this month!
madmax

rlw

Originally posted by madmax001
I just scored the Michell GyroDec with Orbe and motor/controller upgrade for $1475 today.
madmax

Excellent!

As far as the other pieces go, I'm sure you'll get there quickly. It sounds like you want to do this the right way - you're not going out and buying an old Dual table for $50 and tossing a low compliance cart in it and bitching about how bad it is. You've bought an excellent table, and you're talking about excellent arms.

Nicely done, and congrats.

There's always a limiting factor in your system. That's why we're audiophools!

madmax

Paul,
I just went to the Acoustic Sounds link you sent. Looks like a good site. Thanks! What do the following catagories under vinyl mean?


LPs
180 Gram
120 Gram
200 Gram
D2D

I've never seen these before except for LP.
madmax