Cartridge Tracking Problems
hearingimpared
Posts: 21,137
I've come across a vexing problem with my really great tracking Dynavector 10 X 5 cartridge. When I play my Telarc 1812 Overture LP, the cartridge is literally jumping out of the grooves with the canon blasts. When I play side two it tracks perfectly all the very hard to track portions of the perfomance.
I've played this record in the past ONLY with moving magnet cartridges such as a high end Audio Technica cart, a Shure V15 Type V, and a Talisman Alchemist cartridge with this tonearm and had no trouble at all tracking these canon blasts.
I've adjusted the VTF, anti-skating, up and down. I've also adjusted the tonearm damping every which way. The platter and tone arm are perfectly level and scrupulously set up. This cartridge is well broken in and is known as an excellent tracker.
I'm out of ideas so any thoughts or advise would be greatly appreciated.
Oh and one other thing . . . PHIL let me save you the trouble, I know your CD player tracks perfectly!!! But it still doesn't sound as good as an LP.:p
I've played this record in the past ONLY with moving magnet cartridges such as a high end Audio Technica cart, a Shure V15 Type V, and a Talisman Alchemist cartridge with this tonearm and had no trouble at all tracking these canon blasts.
I've adjusted the VTF, anti-skating, up and down. I've also adjusted the tonearm damping every which way. The platter and tone arm are perfectly level and scrupulously set up. This cartridge is well broken in and is known as an excellent tracker.
I'm out of ideas so any thoughts or advise would be greatly appreciated.
Oh and one other thing . . . PHIL let me save you the trouble, I know your CD player tracks perfectly!!! But it still doesn't sound as good as an LP.:p
Post edited by hearingimpared on
Comments
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hearingimpared wrote: »I've come across a vexing problem with my really great tracking Dynavector 10 X 5 cartridge. When I play my Telarc 1812 Overture LP, the cartridge is literally jumping out of the grooves with the canon blasts. When I play side two it tracks perfectly all the very hard to track portions of the perfomance.
I've played this record in the past ONLY with moving magnet cartridges such as a high end Audio Technica cart, a Shure V15 Type V, and a Talisman Alchemist cartridge with this tonearm and had no trouble at all tracking these canon blasts.
I've adjusted the VTF, anti-skating, up and down. I've also adjusted the tonearm damping every which way. The platter and tone arm are perfectly level and scrupulously set up. This cartridge is well broken in and is known as an excellent tracker.
I'm out of ideas so any thoughts or advise would be greatly appreciated.
Oh and one other thing . . . PHIL let me save you the trouble, I know your CD player tracks perfectly!!! But it still doesn't sound as good as an LP.:p
Complain, complain, complain. Well what'd you expect from vinyl. A word of advice to help matters...move the freakin canons!!! :eek:"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
pearsall001 wrote: »Complain, complain, complain. Well what'd you expect from vinyl. A word of advice to help matters...move the freakin canons!!! :eek:
See ya can't contribute anything good to the conversation so act silly!!!:p -
hearingimpared wrote: »See ya can't contribute anything good to the conversation so act silly!!!:p
You're talking about vinyl here, nothing good there. What do you want me to bring on Sunday? Am I still allowed to come or have I been a bad boy?"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
I hardly call it a groove on that LP, it is more like a canyon or chasm. Many a great cartridge has struggled with it.HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable
2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable -
pearsall001 wrote: »You're talking about vinyl here, nothing good there. What do you want me to bring on Sunday? Am I still allowed to come or have I been a bad boy?
I'll get back to you later in the week when I have a better handle on how big the crew will be Sunday. -
Dennis Gardner wrote: »I hardly call it a groove on that LP, it is more like a canyon or chasm. Many a great cartridge has struggled with it.
Do moving coil cartridges have more trouble tracking than moving magnet? The three moving coil cartridges that I now have are the first of that type I've ever owned. Like I said above, my earlier MM carts had no problem tracking the Grand Canyon of record grooves in the past. -
It would be nice for everyone to retry records again on their current setups and listen to the differences between cd's and vinyl. I know changing records and flipping LP's is extra effort. (see: does it come with a remote quotes):D The sound is warmer and less tiresome.
Enjoy all formats.engtaz
I love how music can brighten up a bad day. -
Joe,
You are our expert in these matters. You are Ivy league vinyl and we are high school dropouts. I wish I could help! Have you tried the vinyl Forums? Those folks aren't nice like we are, but they may know more.Carl -
Joe,
You are our expert in these matters. You are Ivy league vinyl and we are high school dropouts. I wish I could help! Have you tried the vinyl Forums? Those folks aren't nice like we are, but they may know more.
Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm no expert and I am very rusty. -
Joe,
Being a Moving coil doesn't make a cart track better or worse. Its a combination of the stylus shape, compliance, and tonearm. The SME V is made to handle very low compliance carts, so I doubt that compliance mismatch is an issue.
I'm guessing that the Dynavector just doesn't have as good a stylus as some of the other high end MM carts that you have used. Its just an eliptical tip verses the microridge type that the V15 and/or top AT carts have.
With the quality of the rest of your vinyl rig, it may be time to move up the scale in the cartridge department. I mean, you got a ~$1500 turntable with a ~$3000 tonearm and a ~$380 cartridge. Kinda imbalanced there.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
If your stylus jumps out of the groove the obvious thing to do is increase the traking the force for that record, you need to develop a tracking force remote control that can increase the TF in increments of 1/2 gram. Now you have your answer so get to work.
Or put a half-dollar on the cartridge, listen to the cannon's and then flick it off, a good flick so you have to go and hunt the half dollar for the next time, or use a silver dollar, make sure it is a silver dollar though not some cheap imitation.
j/k on the half-dollar thing................although the remote would be cool, think about adding adjustable TFA to the menu.
Afterall, I am from the Government and I am here to help YOU.
I am with billbill on this one I think his suggestion has merit. Send the record to me I will see if my Clearaudio MM jumps, you can pick it up with those other records you keep saying you sent me................what record???????
RT1 -
If I remember correctly, you like to have the VTF set to the low end of the cartridge's recommended range.
cartridge upgrade
What range of VTF have you tried? What are you using to measure this?
cartridge upgrade
The high range for the cart is 2.2g.
cartridge upgrade
As mentioned above, the eliptical stylus will not track as well as the more advanced shapes. This might be the time to start planning on moving to another cartridge. cartridge upgrade
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »If your stylus jumps out of the groove the obvious thing to do is increase the traking the force for that record, you need to develop a tracking force remote control that can increase the TF in increments of 1/2 gram. Now you have your answer so get to work.
Or put a half-dollar on the cartridge, listen to the cannon's and then flick it off, a good flick so you have to go and hunt the half dollar for the next time, or use a silver dollar, make sure it is a silver dollar though not some cheap imitation.
j/k on the half-dollar thing................although the remote would be cool, think about adding adjustable TFA to the menu.
Afterall, I am from the Government and I am here to help YOU.
I am with billbill on this one I think his suggestion has merit. Send the record to me I will see if my Clearaudio MM jumps, you can pick it up with those other records you keep saying you sent me................what record???????
RT1
Thanks to both you and Bill. I'm really thinking about going after a Koetsu Black and a Clearaudio MM cart. I've tried the VTF adjustments believe me up past what the manufacturer recommends. I read an article recently where Michael Fremer (of Stereophile) was speaking about Harry Pearson (of TAS) and how he sets his reference cartridge to .5 to .75 gms higher than the max the cartridge manufacturer recommends. I'm thinking along those lines also. The 10 X 5 is know to be an excellant tracker, that is why I am a little bewildered as to why it isn't tracking the Telarc canons.
Also Bill, the turntable is much much more than $1500. The platter alone was $1200. So when I take your comparison and really do the ratio of quality, I see how unbalanced the Dynavector 10 x 5 is compared to SME V & the HW 19 MK IV.
One more thing. According to the vinyl experts like Fremer and Pearson, too much VTF is NOT responsible for groove wear. . . it is mistracking due to improperly setup VTF & HTF as well as improper or exagerated SRA/VTA. -
If I remember correctly, you like to have the VTF set to the low end of the cartridge's recommended range.
cartridge upgrade
What range of VTF have you tried? What are you using to measure this?
cartridge upgrade
The high range for the cart is 2.2g.
cartridge upgrade
As mentioned above, the eliptical stylus will not track as well as the more advanced shapes. This might be the time to start planning on moving to another cartridge. cartridge upgrade
LOL! Subliminal printing!!!If I remember correctly, you like to have the VTF set to the low end of the cartridge's recommended range.
cartridge upgrade
What range of VTF have you tried? What are you using to measure this?
cartridge upgrade
I changed that philosophy months ago. Dynavector recommends 1.8 to 2.2 gms for tracking. I've found that setting my VTF to 2.2 to 2.25 is what most records sound "right on" with.
I was afraid of this!!! Well not really, I've been contemplating going into the high end with a new cartridge(s). I think you, Bill and Big Brother hit the nail right on the head!!!As mentioned above, the eliptical stylus will not track as well as the more advanced shapes. This might be the time to start planning on moving to another cartridge. cartridge upgrade -
ZYX R1000 Airy 3hearingimpared wrote: »I changed that philosophy months ago. Dynavector recommends 1.8 to 2.2 gms for tracking. I've found that setting my VTF to 2.2 to 2.25 is what most records sound "right on" with.
Glad to hear you no longer do this. I am still curious as to what you are using to measure the VTF. I am asking as I found the Shure Stylus Force Gauge to be inaccurate one I received the digital gauge.
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
I remember going from an elliptical to a line contact stylus in the 80's. It was a nice overall improvement.
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
hearingimpared wrote: »Also Bill, the turntable is much much more than $1500. The platter alone was $1200. So when I take your comparison and really do the ratio of quality, I see how unbalanced the Dynavector 10 x 5 is compared to SME V & the HW 19 MK IV.
I was referring to used market prices.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »Send the record to me I will see if my Clearaudio MM jumps, you can pick it up with those other records you keep saying you sent me................what record???????
RT1
For all you record lovers out there. . . be afraid, be very afraid, RT1 is vinyl terrorist!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: He holds your dearest recordings hostage and won't negotiate on your terms . . . muuuuu huuu haaaaaaaaa!!!:p
So let's see we have anit-hifi insurgents and vinyl terrorists, what's becoming of this club???:D
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ZYX R1000 Airy 3
Glad to hear you no longer do this. I am still curious as to what you are using to measure the VTF. I am asking as I found the Shure Stylus Force Gauge to be inaccurate one I received the digital gauge.
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
I remember going from an elliptical to a line contact stylus in the 80's. It was a nice overall improvement.
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
I'm using the Shure guage. I was considering the fact that I should go with a digital guage. My tonearm's dial is very accurate so once I get the stylus on a guage and set the tonearm VTF dial, its increments are 0.125. However if it is starting off wrong because of an inaccurate guage then my dial accuracy is a moot point.
How did you find that the Shure was inaccurate? That friggin thing is supposed to be accurate down to 0.1 gms. See I went on the cheap which I hate doing and as always I'm sorry I did.
As I said before this is my first foray into MC carts and it (10 X 5) got excellant reviews in the rags as well as from members here. The 10 x5 really is a good cartridge, it sounds very nice once broken in. I just happened to get the jones on for some Telarc dynamics and found it doesn't track the canons well. Well I am going to purchase a high end cartridge.
Thanks for the advise. I have to get out to the local high end snob shop and get my ears on some good MCs & MM cartridges.
This is very much a coincidence. I've been eyeballing a Musical Fidelity kW 500 integrated hybrid amp. This amp only has a MM phono section! I was talking with my Big Brother about it and he recommended a high end ClearAudio MM cart. Wow it all falls into place doesn't it?;) :cool: -
I started with a Shure gauge; reset the VTF to 1.9x then received the digital gauge about a week later. The VTF measured 2.2x with the digital. Others have had this problem; this was why I decided to get the digital gauge for the ZYX cartridge.
Not having any VTF scale on the tonearm, I wanted something that will give me exact readings. This will allow me to experiment and duplicate prior settings. Dont worry, I still have my Shure in a drawer in the audio room.
This looks like the one I purchased.
The 10x5 is a great cartridge; it is in the same drawer as the Shure gauge and will be kept as a backup.
On a side note, the MF gear is good stuff. As much as I like it, the sonic characteristics of Simaudio were much better. Ayre components are also a favorite of mine after hearing them. Hopefully your local stores have these lines so you can have a listen.
Happy hunting.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
I started with a Shure gauge; reset the VTF to 1.9x then received the digital gauge about a week later. The VTF measured 2.2x with the digital. Others have had this problem; this was why I decided to get the digital gauge for the ZYX cartridge.
Not having any VTF scale on the tonearm, I wanted something that will give me exact readings. This will allow me to experiment and duplicate prior settings. Dont worry, I still have my Shure in a drawer in the audio room.
This looks like the one I purchased.
The 10x5 is a great cartridge; it is in the same drawer as the Shure gauge and will be kept as a backup.
On a side note, the MF gear is good stuff. As much as I like it, the sonic characteristics of Simaudio were much better. Ayre components are also a favorite of mine after hearing them. Hopefully your local stores have these lines so you can have a listen.
Happy hunting.
Great Stuff!!! Thanks JM. I was thinking of that same digital guage but not from Singapore.:eek:
In the meantime while hunting down a new cartridge, I need to mount the Grado Silver and Sumiko Blue Point Specials that I have on hand. They are around the same quality level as the 10 X 5. -
Sometimes talking about vinyl setups is like a different language. I have to write notes, then look up the definition or decipher the acronyms to understand these hi end vinyl discussions.
I do learn a lot from you vinyl junkies!:D
CarlCarl -
Sometimes talking about vinyl setups is like a different language. I have to write notes, then look up the definition or decipher the acronyms to understand these hi end vinyl discussions.
I do learn a lot from you vinyl junkies!:D
Carl
In the future, I will utilize my typing skills to elaborate on the topic of discussion.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
Sometimes talking about vinyl setups is like a different language. I have to write notes, then look up the definition or decipher the acronyms to understand these hi end vinyl discussions.
I do learn a lot from you vinyl junkies!:D
Carl
VTF = Vertical Tracking Force, the amount of down force exerted on the stylus.
HTF/Anti-Skate = Horizontal Tracking Force or anti-skating force if you like the amount of horizontal force towards or away from the spindle to keep the cartridge from being pulled towards the spindle.
SRA = Stylus Rake Angle, the angle the stylus/cantilever has in relation to the plane of the lp & cut groove. Adjusted mainly by increasing or decreasing the VTF.
VTA = Vertical Tracking Angle, similar to the SRA but adjusted by raising and lowering the tonearm on its pillar.
TT = Turntable
ZYX Cartridge = high end cartridge I wish I had.:D
Supercalifragilisticexpealidocious = the sound that came out of my mouth after drinking a couple of bottles of scotch.:D
All of the above based on a non-linear tonearm or pivoted tonearms if you like. I've never owned a linear tracking arm so I don't know the jargon. Although I have heard them. They are a completely different animal with completely different needs. -
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
Digital Stylus gauge
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
This is in CDN$ which is not such a good deal for you anymore.
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
He also sells ZYX.
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
Too bad you are so far away. While my TT is down, it would have been nice to see how your system performed with the ZYX.
ZYX R1000 Airy 3
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
waaaaaaaaaa..........I am an Audio Infidel........Joe I really think the Dynavector is a fine MC cartridge, I have heard it at BDT's and it is really a great bang for the dollar item that does track like nobody's business, sure there are better and would agree your set up might want something a bit more on the refined side.
Enjoy.........so you sending me this junkie record you cannot play???? Afterall you have no use for it. You are correct I do not negotiate with terrorists.......
RT1--Audio Infidel -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »waaaaaaaaaa..........I am an Audio Infidel........Joe I really think the Dynavector is a fine MC cartridge, I have heard it at BDT's and it is really a great bang for the dollar item that does track like nobody's business, sure there are better and would agree your set up might want something a bit more on the refined side.
Enjoy.........so you sending me this junkie record you cannot play???? Afterall you have no use for it. You are correct I do not negotiate with terrorists.......
RT1--Audio Infidel
You are an Audio Terrorist!!! Audio Infidels is just another name for anti-hifi insurgent!!! See the difference?? ROTFLMAO!~:D
