Amplifier upgrade path

tcrossma

I currently have a Yamaha RX-V2500 AVR, Polk T90e (Monitor 60) fronts, CS2 center, Monitor 30 rears, and a Paradigm Ultracube 10 sub. I'm going to start working towards upgrading the system, probably a little bit at a time.

My thought is to keep the Yami as a pre and buy a separate amp. Then upgrade the speakers, starting with the fronts and center, then the rears. The speakers i'm thinking of upgrading to eventually are the LSi 15's.

I think my main question is with regards to the amp. Should I get a 2 or 3 channel amp to drive the fronts/centers and leave the Yami to drive the rears (and possible the center as well)? Or should I be thinking of a 5 channel amp to take the load completely off the receiver?

I use this for 60% music / 40% movies. But I only have 1 room to work with so don't have the luxury of two separate systems. I want something that does both respectably, with the emphasis on better music. Currently the system does both "ok", but I want better...

Thanks,

tim

Systems

I just bought 2 of these bad boys today myself! You could buy 3 for that center.

Outlaw 2200 M-Block
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html

engtaz

Try to stay with 200 watts to each of the front 3 speakers. Price 3 Outlaw monos, Adcom 555 and Outlaw Mono, or any combo's from other amp builders or 3 channel amps. Just compare the total prices that will provide at least 200 watts to the front 3 speakers. Don't skimp on the center because most of you HT sound comes out of it. For 2 channel the 200 watts will give a very clean and full sound.

cfrizz

Just get a 5 channel & be done with it.

First I got a 2 channel, then I got a mono, finally I got the 5 channel, which is what I should have done from the get go!

Ah well, live & learn. I just wish it didn't cost so much to learn it!

dkg999

There will be a bunch (as in 6) Outlaw M200 mono-blocks going up in the Club Polk Flea Market real soon!

And yes this is a shameless pre-sale announcement :cool:

Early B.

dkg999 wrote: »

There will be a bunch (as in 6) Outlaw M200 mono-blocks going up in the Club Polk Flea Market real soon!

And yes this is a shameless pre-sale announcement :cool:

How soon is "real soon?" -- tonight, next week, next month....

venomclan

dkg999 wrote: »

There will be a bunch (as in 6) Outlaw M200 mono-blocks going up in the Club Polk Flea Market real soon!

And yes this is a shameless pre-sale announcement :cool:

Are you upgrading DK?
V

dkg999

I just took delivery of a new/demo B&K AVR 507 series 2 thanks to our member OkiePolkie! H9 sold me his LSi9's, and I picked up an LSiC and LSiFX and a real sweet price from the local "Tweeter needs to pay our bills" sale.

reeltrouble1

If your rig is going to be used more for music than HT I really would not recommend using an AVR as a pre, the op amps in it and the PCB overall just were not designed with high quality signal paths in mind.

RT1

Spacedeckman

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

If your rig is going to be used more for music than HT I really would not recommend using an AVR as a pre, the op amps in it and the PCB overall just were not designed with high quality signal paths in mind.

RT1

Won't be a problem with that piece. Really nice preamp section, probably better than most things up to stupid $$. Very good plan, actually.

Mark

tcrossma

Spacedeckman wrote: »

Won't be a problem with that piece. Really nice preamp section, probably better than most things up to stupid $$. Very good plan, actually.

Mark

Great, glad to hear that I'm shopping around for an amp right now, and will probably make that move within a couple weeks. The speakers shouldn't be much after that. I'll keep you guys informed about how it works out, and I really thank you all for the input.

tim

heiney9

Spacedeckman wrote: »

Won't be a problem with that piece. Really nice preamp section, probably better than most things up to stupid $$. Very good plan, actually.

Mark

Or probably not. Certainly in a pinch or on a budget use an AVR as a pre/pro but certainly don't make it permanent unless it's for movies only. Using an AVR for a pre is a huge bottle neck if you are looking for any kind of decent fidelity for music........regardless of what spaceman says. You can certainly do it but with average results. Really depends what your end goal is and how critical you are for stellar music reproduction.

H9

Refefer

heiney9 wrote: »

Or probably not. Certainly in a pinch or on a budget use an AVR as a pre/pro but certainly don't make it permanent unless it's for movies only. Using an AVR for a pre is a huge bottle neck if you are looking for any kind of decent fidelity for music........regardless of what spaceman says. You can certainly do it but with average results. Really depends what your end goal is and how critical you are for stellar music reproduction.

H9

That said, you can probably get by with picking up an amp for now. Later down the line when you want to improve your sound to the next level, a pre/pro to replace the weakest link will be the way to go.

tcrossma

From some of the reviews i've read it seems the RX-V2500 actually has a pretty good pre-amp section. I'm sure it's not up there with the big guns of separates, but I think it'll get me by for now.

Thanks again for all the suggestions guys.

tim

reeltrouble1

Spacedeckman wrote: »

Won't be a problem with that piece. Really nice preamp section, probably better than most things up to stupid $$. Very good plan, actually.

Mark

What's so nice about it, you need to describe the circuit topology which would make this thing different, integrated circuits, volume control, resistors?, what kind? power supplies? lets see what does it weigh? oh, how about the capacitors, type, how many? a few large, many small, a few small, how fast is she?what have you. AVR's are not by design hi-fi items, they are simply compromises to convenience, nice for HT and that is it, you want hi-fi forget about it.

sorry but not really here to cuddle and BS people about what is what.

RT1

Sami

YMMV with AVR's as preamps. I have HK AVR7200 in my HT and while switch to separate amps was a moderate upgrade, none of the preamps I have tried (2ch tube and ss as well as surround prepro's) have offered improvement for 2ch listening. While the selection of preamps does not cover the full spectrum, it's an indication that separate preamp is not necessarily an upgrade. It's just my opinion of course, and maybe I just happen to like the HK sound in general (the 3375 I have sounds damn good as a preamp).

treitz3

Tim, you stated this......"I use this for 60% music / 40% movies."

My opinion............do you want a high resolution system (2 channel music) or do you want theater?

You have a simple choice that will give you what you want. Once that choice is made, stick with it. If your choice is HI-FI, then re-read what RT1 is saying.

I am a 2-channel guy, so I know exactly what he is talking about. An AVR is not designed to offer what a dedicated pre / amp can offer. Fact.

The choice is yours.

tcrossma

For me it's not a simple choice of "do I want a music system or a movie system". I have a house and family, and due to space and budget i've only got one room and one system to work with. And I need both music and HT.

My current thought is to buy a nice 5 channel 200+wpc amp (leaning towards a Sunfire), upgrade to LSi15, LSiC, and LSiFX, and use my RX-V2500 as a pre.

I don't know about the internals of the Yamaha AVR. I'm sure it's not as good as most dedicated preamps. But, who knows, it might also be better than some of the cheaper ones (just conjecture here folks, don't shoot me).

Here's a link that discusses some of the technical's of this particular AVR. I don't pretend to understand all of them, and i'm only including it for those that might be interested.

RX-V2500 technical details

He made this statement, which I thought interesting:

With that, lets all first remember that receivers in the $1k price range from the leading companies today are an absolute bargain regarding their processing power, features, and performance. I like to think of them as an excellent Preamp/Processor (usually rivaling many costlier Pre/Pros) with a free amp thrown in.

This could very well be BS, but I can at least hope, because replacing my preamp is just probably not in the cards for me during this round of upgrades.

Thanks all,

tim

heiney9

I think based on the furthur info you've provided and considering all of the constraints you have what you've outlined above is a great plan. Some of us (myself included) get carried away with always having to have the top performance in mind and in your situation you have to make some compromises and using the Yammy as pre/pro is a good compromise. Upgrading to LSi's is going to require a beefy amp so that's the path you need to be going down.

Get an amp you can afford and will not need to upgrade for a long time and them start replacing your current speaks w/LSi's and you will have a very nice system for HT as well as music.

H9

reeltrouble1

You are going to need a pro so the yammie will do that, later you can add a pre with an HT pass to do your 2-channel, you will use the same amp. This is the best way to obtain high quality in both areas with one rig.

RT1

heiney9

At a minimum look for a great 2 or 3 channel amp to run the fronts (LSi's) and have the Yammy run the rears. If you have the cash and want to spend it, get a beefy 5 channel amp, but it's probably not nec and you can use the money saved towards the LSi's.

H9

tcrossma

I'm going to get a good 5-channel 200wpc+ amp this go-round, because I don't want to have to do it again anytime soon. Used, i'll probably try to spend around $1k on it, and am currently leaning towards the Sunfire Cinema Grand.

tim

tcrossma

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

You are going to need a pro so the yammie will do that, later you can add a pre with an HT pass to do your 2-channel, you will use the same amp. This is the best way to obtain high quality in both areas with one rig.

RT1

RT1, not sure I understand what you mean exactly? What would the final configuration be, a dedicated pre, the AVR, and an amp?

thanks,

tim

Sami

tcrossma, that's a very sound plan. My receiver is fully capable of driving the LSi's and while I admit the amplifier upgrade made a small difference in how my LSi's sound, the largest upgrade came from actually upgrading the speakers. Everything else after that has been fine tuning, and quite honestly HT isn't what I consider critical listening where you're likely to hear the difference but music is. I do have a 5ch amp but I use it only for the front 3, mains biamped, but I'd be happy with a 2ch as well because of the above.

If you can swing the 5ch amp, I suggest you do get one but the Yamaha you have seems to be capable of driving 4ohm loads so leaving the centre and surrounds for it is an option as well:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v2500/rx-v2500-benchmark-tests-part-1

"Driving 4 ohm loads is certainly not the RX-V2500’s forte, but it did a commendable job considering. It was able to deliver 200wpc with one channel driven and about 110wpc with 2 channels driven unclipped."

"Recommendations

The Yamaha RX-V2500 has respectable amplifier performance for a receiver in its price class and should serve most home theater environments quite well. I advise against using low efficient 4 ohm speakers in environments where you like to play your music loudly and your room dimensions exceed 2000 ft^3. For best results, my advice is to use reasonably efficient (88dB or higher) 6-8 ohm speakers (4 ohm may be used if their efficiency is 90dB or greater and you provide adequate ventilation) and apply bass management to all channels and route the power hungry bass information to a dedicated subwoofer or two. If you find you need more power in the future, simply preamp out to a dedicated amp and you have yourself a great processor with all the latest surround formats on board."

cfrizz

Tim you have a very sound & sensible plan, go for it & get a 5 channel & be done with it.! Audiogon has a few Sunfire amps up for grabs right now so check them out.

Like you I only have room for one system. so your plan to upgrade of the amp & eventually the speakers you will have an outstanding system for both music & movies.

Gaara

Not much in the way of Sunfires right now, on Agon the cheapest is $1799, just a smidgen over the 1k budget.

Ebay has a new auction starting at $500 + $100 shipping and one going for $1085+$100 shipping or $1350 shipped with the BIN. Can't really tell if either are actually Series II, but there have been a few non series 2 selling as series 2 recently.

reeltrouble1

tcrossma wrote: »

RT1, not sure I understand what you mean exactly? What would the final configuration be, a dedicated pre, the AVR, and an amp?

thanks,

tim

Tim,

Yes, exactly, you will run from the source with a digital cable to the AVR, then from the AVR's pre-out LR into the Pre's HT pass-in and then directly from the Pre's output into the amp L/R, when you want to watch movies you flick some kind of switch to HT-by-pass and the signal is not touched by the pre. It just "passes" through.

When you want music you would go directly from your source via analog connection into the pre, the pre would do its musical magic and then out to the amp. There will be some sort of setting that you flick or set the switch for this setting.

Its a very clean system which offers the best of both worlds, I run the Reel Time rig this way for years and have had great success, it keeps your music audio signal away from those nasty circuits and op amps inside the AVR.

RT1

Spacedeckman

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

What's so nice about it, you need to describe the circuit topology which would make this thing different, integrated circuits, volume control, resistors?, what kind? power supplies? lets see what does it weigh? oh, how about the capacitors, type, how many? a few large, many small, a few small, how fast is she?what have you. AVR's are not by design hi-fi items, they are simply compromises to convenience, nice for HT and that is it, you want hi-fi forget about it.

sorry but not really here to cuddle and BS people about what is what.

RT1

Wow, getting a bit snarky aren't we? I know this thread is getting old, but we need a bit of a reality check around here. RT, you are trying really hard to be a snooty audiophile, but you are missing the forest for the trees. Many of these newer upscale AVRs actually have what it takes to make a great pre-pro. The world is changing around you. Yamaha made the first move about 6-7 years ago, starting with the RXV-800/1000/3000, completely revamping the front end, and taking a huge leap forward in SQ. Denon followed a few years later starting with the 3805, Pioneer Elite a couple of years ago. These things are far more advanced then pre-pros at multiple times the cost.

The RXV2500 is a great example of that (the 2700 is even better) using BB DAs, short signal paths, a digitally controlled analog volume control, a topography designed to limit noise, high quality caps, separately regulated power supplies. The 2500's front end will not only outfeature, but outperform any surround pre-amp up to silly money, and will not be shamed by any remote control 2 channel pre-amp at or near the price, it will be player. Its called a solid design, matched by economies of scale that can't be matched by the high end companies. That being said, your commentary on parts is quite interesting. All the best parts in the world won't do a damn bit of good if they are used in a bad circuit design or not integrated properly. That receiver has the goods in the front end, it just needs an amplifier that can keep up. The one it has is great for a Japanese receiver, but the front end screams for the real thing.

You see, you approach this from the wrong angle. You want something to have a "pedigree" before you consider it worthy of your consideration. I've spent 20 years in the industry, entry level to ultra-high end. A well designed piece of gear is a well designed piece of gear. The biggest compromise on a higher end Japanese receiver is the amplifier, not so much the processor anymore, especially for the examples I listed. I guess Sony ES has picked up on this too, btw, just heard from a local dealer about their show, but can't confirm as of yet.

So, sure, if you want to spend $4k+ on a "high end" pre-pro, you may start to see some advantages sonically...maybe, but you will still be short on features and capabilities. If I took the $2500 I didn't spend on the fancy-schmancy pre-pro and upgraded speakers or amplification, I'd still be way ahead of the game. You would have a pedigreed system, and I'd have one that kicked your **** from here 'til next Tuesday. It's not about how much you spend, it's about how well you spend what you have.

Get out of snob mode before I tell you about my ultra-high end friends who use DVD players to play CDs, replacing "pedigreed" CD players. If you make me too cranky, I'll get on my soap box about people's obsession with crappy amplifiers which underperform those receivers you hold in such distain, even though those receivers are so "compromised."

Mark

Spacedeckman

treitz3 wrote: »

Tim, you stated this......"I use this for 60% music / 40% movies."

My opinion............do you want a high resolution system (2 channel music) or do you want theater?

You have a simple choice that will give you what you want. Once that choice is made, stick with it. If your choice is HI-FI, then re-read what RT1 is saying.

I am a 2-channel guy, so I know exactly what he is talking about. An AVR is not designed to offer what a dedicated pre / amp can offer. Fact.

The choice is yours.

A few years ago, I would have agreed with you. Times have changed. I'm a two channel guy as well, as my sig line shows. I don't own a surround system. It would be fun, but, not right now. I do own two surround receivers though, just need the space and budget to set one up. The choice isn't as clear cut as you make it, especially if you are talking for the same money.

Mark

heiney9

Spacedeckman wrote: »

Wow, getting a bit snarky aren't we? I know this thread is getting old, but we need a bit of a reality check around here. RT, you are trying really hard to be a snooty audiophile, but you are missing the forest for the trees. Many of these newer upscale AVRs actually have what it takes to make a great pre-pro. The world is changing around you. Yamaha made the first move about 6-7 years ago, starting with the RXV-800/1000/3000, completely revamping the front end, and taking a huge leap forward in SQ. Denon followed a few years later starting with the 3805, Pioneer Elite a couple of years ago. These things are far more advanced then pre-pros at multiple times the cost.

The RXV2500 is a great example of that (the 2700 is even better) using BB DAs, short signal paths, a digitally controlled analog volume control, a topography designed to limit noise, high quality caps, separately regulated power supplies. The 2500's front end will not only outfeature, but outperform any surround pre-amp up to silly money, and will not be shamed by any remote control 2 channel pre-amp at or near the price, it will be player. Its called a solid design, matched by economies of scale that can't be matched by the high end companies. That being said, your commentary on parts is quite interesting. All the best parts in the world won't do a damn bit of good if they are used in a bad circuit design or not integrated properly. That receiver has the goods in the front end, it just needs an amplifier that can keep up. The one it has is great for a Japanese receiver, but the front end screams for the real thing.

You see, you approach this from the wrong angle. You want something to have a "pedigree" before you consider it worthy of your consideration. I've spent 20 years in the industry, entry level to ultra-high end. A well designed piece of gear is a well designed piece of gear. The biggest compromise on a higher end Japanese receiver is the amplifier, not so much the processor anymore, especially for the examples I listed. I guess Sony ES has picked up on this too, btw, just heard from a local dealer about their show, but can't confirm as of yet.

So, sure, if you want to spend $4k+ on a "high end" pre-pro, you may start to see some advantages sonically...maybe, but you will still be short on features and capabilities. If I took the $2500 I didn't spend on the fancy-schmancy pre-pro and upgraded speakers or amplification, I'd still be way ahead of the game. You would have a pedigreed system, and I'd have one that kicked your **** from here 'til next Tuesday. It's not about how much you spend, it's about how well you spend what you have.

Get out of snob mode before I tell you about my ultra-high end friends who use DVD players to play CDs, replacing "pedigreed" CD players. If you make me too cranky, I'll get on my soap box about people's obsession with crappy amplifiers which underperform those receivers you hold in such distain, even though those receivers are so "compromised."

Mark

Oh please get on your soap box enlightened one, because the rest of us schmucks don't know a damn thing, we haven't been exposed to your wonderful world of knowledge or owned hundreds of pieces of equipmenet or been in this hobby very long. Oh gosh where have you been so you could have straightend us out long ago. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I got a kick out of the fact you state that the Yammy has a stellar front end and that it's an awesome design with excellent components, etc. only to state the amplifier section is not very good. Why on earth would they go to all the trouble and expense (your words) to mate a great front end with a mediocre or less output section; seems stupid to me. BTW, of the receivers you mention Yammy would be dead last on my list as they sound pretty poor.

Please enlighten us about the "ultra high end" system your friend has and uses a DVD player to play cds because the better cdp can't keep up. You lost all credibility (you didn;t have much to begin with) with that statement.

Let's get cranky, I need some more entertainment.

H9

tonyb

Ted,you snobby **** you.:D
Well Mark,Though I have to agree,AVR's have come along way in the past few years.But so have seperates.If you want to compare spinning a cd on a dvd player to a Tri-vista player,gotta call ya on the carpet there pal.I am going to take a guess that you are saying the difference in sq between an avr and seperate pre-pro is minimal and not worth the money.This may ring true to some people,but not to most.A dedicated 2-channel system does not need the processing that a HT rig needs.IMHO,seperates sound better because of seperate power supplies for each componant and better quality of parts and better design.Avr's for the most part,are compromised in all of those area's.Of coarse,there are a few that do come close and may even exceed some seperates.Some people don;t care so much about sq and can tell little difference between mid fi to hi fi gear.All well and good.Look at Ted's gear,in either system,you mean to tell me an avr and a dvd player will get him the same sound???**** Ted,sell me your gear,and grab that yammie.Think of the coin you'll save.Mark,some people like a no holes barred system for the most sq they can squeeze out.Ted is one of them.Cost doesn't matter.Sq does and if a couple grand will give him an inch of better sound,I have no doubt he'll do it.If you believe spinning a cd on a dvd player is just as good as an upper end player such as a MF tri-vista,hats off to you.But don't knock others who respectfully disagree.We all know audio is subjective,and the various opinions are too numerous to mention.As you can see by my sig,I spin cd's on a universal player.Sq is above average.But would kick it to the curb for a MF tri-vista player in a hearbeat.To each his own I guess.Ted is alot of things,a snob not being one of them.He has helped more people here,regardless of the quality of their systems,than I can recall.