Preamp Solution???

Early B.
Early B. Posts: 7,900
edited June 2007 in Electronics
Ok, this is a weird question, but first, some background info:

My friend has the Shanling tube CDP and tube monos with a beautiful pair of Tyler Acoustic 7U's. The room size is approximately 10' x 13'. Because of limitations in placement, the right speaker is close to a corner, and this causes the bass to load up in that corner in a pretty big way. As a result, there is a perceived volume imbalance between the two speakers. This is the sitting room and there's a WAF, so forget about acoustic panels, rearranging furniture, etc.

Here's the question -- he wants to tame the bass in that right speaker and is looking for solutions. He's not interested in an in-line attenuator. He's more interested in introducing a solid state preamp with dual volume controls that won't break the bank, i.e., less than $1K used.

Does anyone know if such a preamp exists? Are there any other solutions to this problem?

Thanks.
HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

"God grooves with tubes."
Post edited by Early B. on
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Comments

  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited June 2007
    A balance control will achieve the same result as dual volume controls,and I would think there are very few preamps sporting dual controls.But either way it may allow him to balance the level but will not compensate for the frequency imbalance.Short of added a nasty noisy equilizer (uugh) his best solution would be to place the speakers symetrically if possible.

    btw.there is a nice tube preamp that has dual controls if you want to check ebay and Audiogon,it is the Audible illusions Modules 3.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2007
    Balance control? Aaargghhhh!!!

    How do you tell an audiophile he needs a freakin' balance control? Oh, I'm hyperventillating. I need to sit down...
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited June 2007
    Don't you have a solid state preamp with dual volume control for less then $1k?

    I know I have two TVCs that have dual volume control, one was a little over $500 and one was around $300.

    Jared
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited June 2007
    Early B. wrote: »
    Balance control? Aaargghhhh!!!

    How do you tell an audiophile he needs a freakin' balance control? Oh, I'm hyperventillating. I need to sit down...
    Drug him:D
    So he is completely willing to set up a great pair of speakers in a less than ideal way but dislikes the idea of a balance control.:confused:
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited June 2007
    Bass traps.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2007
    Gaara wrote: »
    Don't you have a solid state preamp with dual volume control for less then $1k?

    I know I have two TVCs that have dual volume control, one was a little over $500 and one was around $300.

    Jared


    Actually, my friend has a Promitheus dual mono TVC on another rig. But for some reason he has gain issues with the Shanling gear when the Promi is installed.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2007
    RuSsMaN wrote: »
    Bass traps.

    His wife would mutilate him for such a thing. It'll be hard for him to pee without a pee-wee.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited June 2007
    And this is the one and only place (wall) he can setup his rig?
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2007
    RuSsMaN wrote: »
    And this is the one and only place (wall) he can setup his rig?

    Yep. Unfortunately, it is. I'm gonna try, once again, to convince him to move it into the family room. But that option has its own unique set of problems as well that are equally disconcerting, i.e., extra long cable runs around a fireplace, too much foot traffic, etc.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2007
    I should mention that the system sounds incredibly good. In fact, the bass loading sounds awesome to the ears of the uninitiated. Those speakers should not be physically capable of producing that amount of prodigious bass. I think, at this point, he's really more interested in experimenting with a preamp for his Shanling gear, so he's trying to kill two birds with one stone.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited June 2007
    Early B. wrote: »
    Balance control? Aaargghhhh!!!

    How do you tell an audiophile he needs a freakin' balance control? Oh, I'm hyperventillating. I need to sit down...

    He's not a true audiophile if he's not allowed or willing to set his rig up properly. The balance control is the easiest most logical corrective device for this situation.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,803
    edited June 2007
    The 7u puts out alot of bass my friend...

    You seriously dont need a sub for 90% of music...

    Unless you are me. Then you need a sub for 100% of all music - even if its crossed at 35hz and at 1/8 volume - it just makes me feel good inside.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • venomclan
    venomclan Posts: 2,467
    edited June 2007
    Audioadvisor used to sell an item that would be placed on the back of the speaker, it had a magent and was used to tighten a driver's bass response. It was made for subs mostly but could also be used on towers. I cannot find it on the site but I think it was made by a company called Tekne or something. That may do the trick with proper placement. Anybody remember this thing?
    V
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited June 2007
    I don't think balance is going to cut it in this situation- you've got the right about of treble, so if you cut the FR signal, that side is gonna sound muddy. Bass traps/ different position is the right answer here, and if not that then maybe an BFD. Leave the top end and the one channel flat, then cut the low end back on the problem side.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2007
    unc2701 wrote: »
    I don't think balance is going to cut it in this situation- you've got the right about of treble, so if you cut the FR signal, that side is gonna sound muddy. Bass traps/ different position is the right answer here, and if not that then maybe an BFD. Leave the top end and the one channel flat, then cut the low end back on the problem side.

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why wouldn't a balance control work in this situation? My friend's system appears unbalanced because of the corner loading. If you sit in the sweet seat, you can't really tell if the left speaker is on, and you can pinpoint the bass as coming from the right corner of the room. I think if he were able to reduce the gain on the right side, his problem would be resolved.

    Bass traps and a different position aren't an option.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited June 2007
    His problem is too much BASS in the right speaker. A balance control will cut back EVERYTHING to the right speaker. The tonal imbalance will remain.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2007
    Early B. wrote: »
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why wouldn't a balance control work in this situation? My friend's system appears unbalanced because of the corner loading. If you sit in the sweet seat, you can't really tell if the left speaker is on, and you can pinpoint the bass as coming from the right corner of the room. I think if he were able to reduce the gain on the right side, his problem would be resolved.

    Bass traps and a different position aren't an option.

    So you need a ss pre, with R and L gain controls, and a vol? Kinda like my audible illusions L-1,,just a ss version?
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited June 2007
    Early B. wrote: »
    Balance control? Aaargghhhh!!!

    How do you tell an audiophile he needs a freakin' balance control? Oh, I'm hyperventillating. I need to sit down...

    An "audiophile" would rearrange, WAF or not. LOL

    Can I get an Amen?
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2007
    Amen !
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited June 2007
    I agree balance or individual gains will not fix the issue, since it would cut the whole frequencies, not just the bass. If relocating or bass traps are not an option, then he should buy a couple of monitors and a sub placed in the right place.
    _________________________________________________
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited June 2007
    steveinaz wrote: »
    An "audiophile" would rearrange, WAF or not. LOL

    Can I get an Amen?

    Amen!

    madmax

    Edit: Actually, to try and be more helpful here, maybe he could ask his wife to let him build a shed out back or maybe she would just rather him get out of the audiophile business all together.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2007
    HTrookie wrote: »
    I agree balance or individual gains will not fix the issue, since it would cut the whole frequencies, not just the bass. If relocating or bass traps are not an option, then he should buy a couple of monitors and a sub placed in the right place.

    yep,, and put those 7u's on the FM :D
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2007
    unc2701 wrote: »
    His problem is too much BASS in the right speaker. A balance control will cut back EVERYTHING to the right speaker. The tonal imbalance will remain.

    OK, I gotcha.

    So even if my friend had a pre with dual volume controls, he would still have a tonal imbalance due to placement, correct?
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited June 2007
    Yep, the corner loading mainly affects the bass frequencies.

    Rearrange, Brotha!

    AMEN!
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited June 2007
    Early B. wrote: »
    OK, I gotcha.

    So even if my friend had a pre with dual volume controls, he would still have a tonal imbalance due to placement, correct?
    Exactly, as I alluded to in my first post you may be able to change the level of one channel but you can't change its frequency imbalance unless an equilizer is added to reduce the bass in that one channel.But we all know an audiophile should never use an EQ.If he absolutely can't move them then there is one experiment he might try.If the speakers happen to be ported designs he could block the port of the speaker that is in the corner with something like dacron or a towel etc.This will reduce the low bass output in that speaker which may?help balance it with the other.
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