any electricians? old k+t in my house....

nadams

So, as you know, I just recently bought an old house. It was communicated to me through the agent as well as the seller's disclosure that there was NO knob and tube wiring left in the house.

However, upon moving in, I noticed some k+t under an access panel in a closet. No problem, I'll just grab my tester and make sure it's not "BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP".... damn. So then I start poking around. I see no k+t visible in the basement... everything running into the circuit box has been updated. Hmmm.

I got up into the attic and started looking through cracks in the larger attic floorboards. Oh crap, there's more! So, I tear up a few boards here and there, and find TONS of it. And, it's all live, feeding multiple outlets. For example, there's one line that comes up out of a 2nd floor wall, has a splice in it which runs over to a junction box, which feeds two outlets (both of which are 3 prong "grounded" outlets ), plus, the original k+t feed line continues on to another outlet (or outlets) somewhere ELSE.

These are outlets that I was going to put window air conditioners on, plus whatever else that line feeds. I would've easily been over the capacity of the old k+t in no time.

I just need some reaffirmation that any k+t in this house should be replaced with, at minimum, 14-2 romex, for pure safety's sake. Since the disclosure had false information on it, I am going to try to get something out of the sellers to help cover the costs of wiring. This is going to be an immense pain in the ****, both from a wiring standpoint and a financial standpoint. Having just bought this place, I have NO extra funds to buy wire, which, if you haven't noticed, is astronomically priced!!!!

WilliamM2

Check your local codes. My area requires 12-2 for ALL outlets. 14-2 is acceptable for some lighting circuits.

nadams

Hmm... I do usually run 12-2, but I was trying to cheap out. There's NO lighting circuits in the upstairs, its all outlets. I was figuring on just running the 12/2 to outlets where the aircons will be plugged in, but I guess that wouldn't be safe for any future owners who don't know which outlets were wired how.

sucks2beme

They most likely made an assumption based on what they saw at the main box. Don't you love old houses?
I had one that had been updated. By the colorblind!.
There was a drop ceiling in the kitchen. I got zapped touching the metal
grid. Pulled the main box cover, was treated to quite a site. Most of the wiring was 3+! Black, white, red and ground. And it didn't seem to matter what color was on the breakers or ground bus. That was a tedious mess to fix. Had to open up just about every junction point in the house.

disneyjoe7

They why a good house inspector is worth his weight in GOLD. These problem would have been fix prior to closing or check to cover it after the sale. All well hind-sight working again, I hope you get it fixed.

nadams

I brought in an inspector prior to close, but what was I supposed to do? Rip up the carpet in the closet to find the hidden access panel? Tear up floorboards in the attic? All the exposed k+t was disconnected. It's the hidden stuff that is still live.

But, I have to believe that the sellers knew it was still there and hooked up, just because of the way it was spliced into when they put paneling in the upstairs. Who runs ungrounded wire to a grounded outlet, anyway??? GRRR

dkg999

Not sure what the code is in PA, but in some areas as long as the K&T wiring is not exposed, it is within local codes. My code books are at home, but I do believe the national and international codes do not allow existing K&T wiring to be used as part of any remodel or update of an electrical system. You will really need to find out when the last connections or exposure of the K&T wiring was. It may of been prior to the last owners, and as such, they didn't know it was there to disclose in the sale. As long as the K&T is in good shape, it may not be an immediate hazard that you need to correct, although I probably wouldn't be comfortable running an A/C unit on those circuits!

nadams

But there's the rub.... the house has been in the sellers family since it was built. When I walked through the house with him after close, he was going over when all the different rooms were redone and that kind of thing. Someone spliced standard 12/2 w/ ground Romex into this k+t, chopped off the ground wire at the connection point, and then went ahead and wired the outlets as if they were grounded!

Whether or not I can pin any of it on the seller, I've got to get it out of the house. For my own sanity's sake. I won't sleep well at night knowing that old **** is still up there, baking away in the summer heat.

dkg999

Then I would send official notification to the real estate agent. This should be in writing, stating that you have found a situation that is contrary to the disclosure(s) put forth during the sale of the property. I would also ask what remedies they propose. I am assuming the real estate agent was representing the seller, and was not an agent you retained to represent you as a buyer. The notice needs to go to the sellers real estate agent, and give them a time period of no more than 7 business days to respond.

FYI - you may need to engage an attorney to be taken seriously on your claims. A good attorney will be able to get their fees covered in the settlement. I would wait to see what response you get from the sellers real estate agent.

nadams

I had an agent representing me, so I didn't actually deal with the sellers agent until close. I sent my agent an email, containing pictures of the wiring that I've found and explaining the whole situation. I'm going to try to be as forceful as I can. I'd hate to have to get an attorney involved here, but my experience in dealing with the sellers is that they're hard-headed and won't budge even if I call them out on it.

dkg999

Hopefully the sellers and their agent will take this seriously. In Iowa the courts really deal harshly with sellers who make false disclosures. The trick is to prove that they knew, or should of reasonably known, about the situation. Since they have always owned the house, it should be easier to prove they made, intentional or not, a false disclosure. My gues is they will claim whoever did the wiring work didn't tell them about this. Make sure they can come up with who did the work!

disneyjoe7

nadams wrote: »

But there's the rub.... the house has been in the sellers family since it was built. When I walked through the house with him after close, he was going over when all the different rooms were redone and that kind of thing. Someone spliced standard 12/2 w/ ground Romex into this k+t, chopped off the ground wire at the connection point, and then went ahead and wired the outlets as if they were grounded!

Whether or not I can pin any of it on the seller, I've got to get it out of the house. For my own sanity's sake. I won't sleep well at night knowing that old **** is still up there, baking away in the summer heat.

So what you're saying 12/2 from panel to K+T wiring in walls back to 12/2 to outlet? If so I think a house inspector would have found it, either the resistance of the ground wire would be too low telling him it didn't go back to the electrical panel. Or the K+T is still in the outlet box so a little homework here would have told him that K+T was still in the house.

BTW I don't blame you it's a House Inspector who should have found this. Or sorry I think the seller knows also, because he got price A and price B, B price being x2 of A price should have told him something.

MikeC78

Is any of this in the inspectors report? If it's not, then I'd say the problem is the inspector, I'd go after him first.

dkg999

I would notify the inspector also, however you may have a lot stronger case on the lack of disclosure, especially if it was affirmed in the contract that no K&T wiring existed in the structure. If you used a local financial institution for your mortgage, they may support you in this, and that has some influence because that financial institution can exert some pressure on the sellers real estate agency. Good luck!

sucks2beme

This is the stuff that will drive you nuts. A good inspector finds stuff.
If he has the experience, when looking at an older home he looks for hints.
If there is a doubt, he covers himself by suggesting a trade person or engineer look into it.
There's lead paint ,radon leaks in the basement, asbestos, list goes on and on.
Inspectors around here come up with HUGE lists that freak everyone out.
And that's on newer houses.
The problem is lawyers will cost you a bundle. That is what helps out
people that do this crap. The cost of action eats up the person starting the legal action.
My wife is a realtor. She has had clients and sellers lie to her all the time.
Or they use that "buyer beware" line that is no longer the law in real estate.
She went arount with a buyer one time during the final walk through.
There was a throw rug under the dining rome table. They moved it to find:
NO CARPER UNDER THAT AREA!
If a permit was pulled for electrical work done in the past, there should be a
paper trail. Start with the city, and get your ducks in a row.

mhardy6647

Sounds like you've bought yourself a hobby :-(

sucks2beme

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Sounds like you've bought yourself a hobby :-(

They are all a hobby. :mad:

nadams

I don't mind doing the work, but I can't afford to buy the wire. I'd be asking them for maybe $300 to cover the wire. 250' of 12/2 is around $100...

shack

nadams wrote: »

I don't mind doing the work, but I can't afford to buy the wire. I'd be asking them for maybe $300 to cover the wire. 250' of 12/2 is around $100...

There is a reason old homes are called money pits. You can't afford NOT to spend the $300 to get rid of the hot k&t...IMO. As a homeowner you should always have some savings or reserves for the unexpected issues that arise. Another issue to consider over and above code is your homeowners insurance. Some will exclude and not cover damage caused by this type of wiring...so I would check to make sure.

dkg999

I would be asking them for what it costs to have a certified, bonded, licensed electrician do the work! Your position should be that they affirmed that K&T didn't exist in the structure and you made your purchase decision partly on that affirmation. This is not your problem to correct, and you should not, until all other avenues are exhausted, take on the risk of doing it yourself as without a high level of electrical knowledge you may create an even more hazardous situation. I would rather have K&T in good shape, than say a severely unbalanced load on my main panel, or a high level of leakage to ground. Be polite and calm, but stand your ground.

FYI - I am not sure why many people are afraid to engage an attorney in these situations if the initial discussions don't produce any hints that the seller will offer an acceptable remedy. Yes attorney's are expensive, but in situations like this a free initial consultation with a good attorney may reveal that if push comes to shove, the attorney has a high confidence of getting the money to resolve the issue, and getting their attorney fees on top of it. In my experience with real estate issues, nobody get serious until your attorney makes a call.

sucks2beme

dkg999 wrote: »

I would be asking them for what it costs to have a certified, bonded, licensed electrician do the work! Your position should be that they affirmed that K&T didn't exist in the structure and you made your purchase decision partly on that affirmation. This is not your problem to correct, and you should not, until all other avenues are exhausted, take on the risk of doing it yourself as without a high level of electrical knowledge you may create an even more hazardous situation. I would rather have K&T in good shape, than say a severely unbalanced load on my main panel, or a high level of leakage to ground. Be polite and calm, but stand your ground.

FYI - I am not sure why many people are afraid to engage an attorney in these situations if the initial discussions don't produce any hints that the seller will offer an acceptable remedy. Yes attorney's are expensive, but in situations like this a free initial consultation with a good attorney may reveal that if push comes to shove, the attorney has a high confidence of getting the money to resolve the issue, and getting their attorney fees on top of it. In my experience with real estate issues, nobody get serious until your attorney makes a call.

Not always the case. Most of the deals that I have heard of start to escalate,
then hopefully the buyer's and seller's realtor step up. A quick reminder of the CURRENT
law serves to remind pople that lawyer's are expensive.
If the total isn't too high, most of the time they'll pay up.

Neskahi

Expect little help from the realtor. if you examine their contracts, you will
find they are "well protected" from "any" liability after the sale. They are generally not to be found after you close. I'm not slamming all realtor's but for a group that advertises itself as expert's and professional's, they should not be able to walk so easy.

nadams

Just to update this thread, I've been working steadily at rewiring pretty much the entire house now. I found that 90% of the grounded outlets in this house were run off of 12/2 romex that did not have a ground wire. Sooo, I'm replacing all that, and replacing outlets as needed.

Now, this weekend, I decided to smash and access hole into the space above my kitchen and bathroom. This proved to be a wise idea, because this is what I found....



If you can't read the captions, look here - http://www.king-nerd.com/dood/images/gallery/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=house&id=100_3288

The wiring was absolutely awful. I came very close to burning my house down if I would've plugged my a/c in before I realized there was no ground (that clued me in that the house was wired incorrectly, which led me to find the K&T)

New stuff.... not entirely to code, but I ran it how I could to make everything work. Tomorrow I get to hook all the lights back up and remount them all. All of three, but it's a pain in the butt anyway.

mrbigbluelight

nadams wrote: »

Just to update this thread, I've been working steadily at rewiring pretty much the entire house now. I found that 90% of the grounded outlets in this house were run off of 12/2 romex that did not have a ground wire. Sooo, I'm replacing all that, and replacing outlets as needed.

Now, this weekend, I decided to smash and access hole into the space above my kitchen and bathroom. This proved to be a wise idea, because this is what I found....

New stuff.... not entirely to code, but I ran it how I could to make everything work. Tomorrow I get to hook all the lights back up and remount them all. All of three, but it's a pain in the butt anyway.

First, one might thing that the inspector you hired before you bought (always a wise move) would have some liability in this mess.
You mentioned that there were grounded outlets with no ground wire to them (that's bad); well, go to Lowes, Mr. Inspector, and spend $9.95, get a little plugin device that'll tell you the condition of the hot, neutral, and grounded.
No guessing, no muss or fuss, but you do have to bend over to plug it in.

BUT having said that, if you read the prequel to the inspector's inspection report, I can almost GUARANTEE you that there's a little blurb that says something along the lines of, "Be aware that despite the efforts of our technical staff, sometimes things can be overlooked, and the buyer releases the inspector from all liability in the decision to purchase a home", yadda-yadda-yadda.

Get a recommendation from your buyer's agent for a good inspector ?
Well.....your buyer's agent makes a COMMISSION upon the sale of the house, not on the quality of the inspector's report.

An inspector that looks TOO hard soon will find himself without any referrals from the brokers.

The instant the seller and his/her agent stumbles in the path of you having your house repaired (by a LICENSED electrician), than they'd be hearing from my lawyer. Then they'll pay for the repairs AND the lawyer's fees.



That's NEW stuff that was put in your house (per the pix); NO WAY they didn't know it wasn't there. A close inspection reveals, in my opinion, FRAUD.

sucks2beme

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

An inspector that looks TOO hard soon will find himself without any referrals from the brokers.

The instant the seller and his/her agent stumbles in the path of you having your house repaired (by a LICENSED electrician), than they'd be hearing from my lawyer. Then they'll pay for the repairs AND the lawyer's fees.



That's NEW stuff that was put in your house (per the pix); NO WAY they didn't know it wasn't there. A close inspection reveals, in my opinion, FRAUD.

Don't know about up there, but here agents don't refer inspectors. They
provide a list of local inspectors. That prevents the problem, or at least
the appearance of a problem. Sounds like the guy doing the inspection was
less than diligent.

nadams

My agent does refer inspectors. Their inspector is $250. I chose to cheap out and hire my own for $50. He did visual only. My mistake.

My agent has been very helpful throughout the entire process of buying this house, even after it was closed. Maybe things are different in a small town...

janmike

Just curious, is there a disclosure clause on the sale agreement in the USA? If include, is the seller no then liable.

sucks2beme

nadams wrote: »

My agent does refer inspectors. Their inspector is $250. I chose to cheap out and hire my own for $50. He did visual only. My mistake.

My agent has been very helpful throughout the entire process of buying this house, even after it was closed. Maybe things are different in a small town...

$50??????
Well, I guess you paid him about what he was worth.

nadams

janmike wrote: »

Just curious, is there a disclosure clause on the sale agreement in the USA? If include, is the seller no then liable.

There is a disclosure, but the way the question was worded was:

"To the best of your knowledge, is there any knob and tube wiring in the house"


The "to the best of your knowledge" means that they can get out of anything. I did find some knob and tube wiring in plain sight in the basement today, but honestly I missed it until now. I'm just moving on with my life and replacing the wiring instead of bitching about who owes me what. I wasn't diligent enough, and it burned a little... only $300 worth of wiring materials and my time... and now I know the house inside and out.

janmike

That's too bad. Oh well, at least things are getting better.

PS - I went back and reread my post. It sounds like I was drunk and I do not even drink. My 8 year old son has better diction skills than that. Perhaps old age is kicking in.