My 1st Venture into Tubes

Ern Dog
Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
edited June 2007 in 2 Channel Audio
I have to admit that I was expecting a more dramatic improvement going from my HK as a preamp to an entry level tube preamp. There is an improvement but it is subtle. Most notabley, the mids feel smoother and there is more bass extension (had to readjust my sub). There is a touch more warmth all over the spectrum. The highs sound a tad harsh at moderate volume levels, this was also true with my HK. I was hoping that this would mellow out, but it hasn't after 100 hrs of use. I also notice greater separation/clarity of different instruments. Each instument holds its own space more than before. Overall, I'm pleased with the upgrade, again, all these differences were subtle.

The Soundstage Vacuum II Tube preamp came stock with these tubes: JAN 6922 x 2 Philips NOS/NIB (6/86)

In a few weeks I think I'll be ready to role some different ones. Any suggestions for tubes that would help smooth out the highs more?

Thanks, Ern Dog
Post edited by Ern Dog on
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited May 2007
    The first thing you'll want to consider when adding a new "upgrade" is to look at the weak links in your system. For instance, if you are using a budget DVD player as your source, you may be stiffling the preamp's capabilities.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited May 2007
    Agreed, the Phillips JAN are great tubes, look for improvement elsewhere.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited May 2007
    Dang, I was hoping you wouldn't say that, although I know its true. The $180 Onkyo universal DVD/CD player is a black hole stiffling all the goodness that the tubes have to offer.

    My birthday is this month, so I'm puttin' a new cdp on my list. A carousel/changer is a must for me. It's hard enough having a preamp w/out a remote much less a single cdp.
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  • candyliquor35m
    candyliquor35m Posts: 2,267
    edited May 2007
    My sunfire sounded nominal until I put some old stock gold pin Siemens E188CC's in it aka 7308/6922's. They don't come up everyday on ebay but they do come up. A good price is $50 each but a more average is $75 each.

    I've dealt with rockside02 before. I bought his last pair for $100 but this pair he wants $150. I can't say for sure you'll like them but I was having the same problem as you and was thinking about selling the sunfire until I tried these.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-SIEMENS-E188CC-7308-MATCHED-PAIR_W0QQitemZ280111401762QQihZ018QQcategoryZ64629QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited May 2007
    Ern Dog wrote: »
    My birthday is this month, so I'm puttin' a new cdp on my list. A carousel/changer is a must for me. It's hard enough having a preamp w/out a remote much less a single cdp.

    Forget about a carousel/changer. Do you want high fidelity or not?
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,963
    edited May 2007
    Sick 'em Early......This has potential...Have to go get
    the popcorn ready.:p :)
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited May 2007
    Early B. wrote: »
    Forget about a carousel/changer. Do you want high fidelity or not?

    Early's right, using a carousel/changer as your source is not going to get you where you want to go. With that being said, I also have an Onkyo CD carousel/changer (not a DVD/CD combo player) that I use strictly as a transport in line with my CJ tube preamp & AVA Ultra DAC. The result is superb. I wouldn't have it any other way. It is so nice to be able to load up with 6 CD's & have complete control w/ the remote. Maybe I'm showing my age:D but I love it!!! Think about an outboard DAC if you want to keep your carousel/changer.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • riglehart
    riglehart Posts: 276
    edited May 2007
    I bought the Soundstage One (tube pre + 25w SS) a couple months ago. My Jolida 202 (all tubes) sounds way more "tuby" than my Soundsage+NAD2200 combo. I base this on using my vintage Fisher 500c as a baseline of what a tube system historically sounds like.

    I like the Soundstage. I don't know where else you can get a new tube preamp for $320. I opened it up to replace a fried transistor (never short the speaker posts, there's no overload protection) and the parts on the PCB were your run-of-the-mill quality.
    Jolida Tube
    Polk 11T, 7, 5, 5jr, 4
    Standard equip not worth bragging about.
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited May 2007
    I'm stickin' with a changer. There is only a limited selection of quality ones, so I'll be looking toward these: NAD, Rotel & Marantz.
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited May 2007
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Early's right, using a carousel/changer as your source is not going to get you where you want to go. With that being said, I also have an Onkyo CD carousel/changer (not a DVD/CD combo player) that I use strictly as a transport in line with my CJ tube preamp & AVA Ultra DAC. The result is superb. I wouldn't have it any other way. It is so nice to be able to load up with 6 CD's & have complete control w/ the remote. Maybe I'm showing my age:D but I love it!!! Think about an outboard DAC if you want to keep your carousel/changer.

    This is also another good option. There's nothing like loading up my favorite 6 CD's.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited May 2007
    Ern Dog wrote: »
    This is also another good option. There's nothing like loading up my favorite 6 CD's.


    DAC is definitely the way to go. Just take your time and listen to them. Some are leaps and bounds better than others.
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  • Schwingding
    Schwingding Posts: 363
    edited May 2007
    The changes you describe sound like more than just subtle things to me. Tubes will bring out weaknesses in your system's source components, as I have discovered. I started to question my Denon 2910 - a very good CDP after a few months with my Onix SP3 and upgraded to a 3910 with great results.

    Also, simply for lack of another player, I was running an old Panasonic CDP against my Jolida tube amp and was GREATLY disappointed. Everything sounded, literally, terrible. Put the 2910 in its place and things came back to life.

    I would not look to upgrade that tube amp without looking at the source.

    Also, I don't really like the external DAC idea. I'd prefer to feed the amp a direct analog signal from the CDP. Just personal pref.
    HT/music rig
    Panasonic PX60U 50" plasma
    Yamaha 5990 AVR
    Onix SP3 tube amp
    bunch of Outlaw 2200 monoblocks
    DUAL SVS PB12+/2 subs :eek:
    Denon 3910 DVD/SACD/DVD-A
    DirecTV HR10-250 DVR
    Onix Strata Mini mains
    Mirage OM10 surrounds
    Polk CSi5 center
    Polk SC80 rear surrounds
    Samsung BDP1000 blu-ray player

    Bedroom rig
    Jolida SJ302a tube amp
    Denon 2910 universal player
    Onix Ref 1 monitors
    Velodyne minivee
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited May 2007
    Schwingding wrote: »
    Also, I don't really like the external DAC idea. I'd prefer to feed the amp a direct analog signal from the CDP. Just personal pref.

    I'm curious as to why you feel that way.

    I feed my DAC with the digital out of my digital front end thus just using the transport, then I connect my DAC via the analog outs with ICs to my preamp's aux port. I think if you buy a cheap CDP that has a good transport and put the bulk of your money in a DAC and that is all the DAC is made for, digital to analog conversion, you would have to get a better sounding result than if you spent the same money on a full blow CDP that costs the same as the DAC, IMHO.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited May 2007
    Schwingding wrote: »
    Also, I don't really like the external DAC idea. I'd prefer to feed the amp a direct analog signal from the CDP. Just personal pref.

    Yeah, me, too.

    I like to keep it simple -- having "extra" components like tube buffers, DIPs or DACs as part of the signal path allows more oppotunities to screw up the sound, IMO.

    Ern Dog, if you insist upon having a CD changer, a DAC is the answer, not another CD changer. If you like what you already have, keep it.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited May 2007
    Early B. wrote: »
    Yeah, me, too.

    I like to keep it simple -- having "extra" components like tube buffers, DIPs or DACs as part of the signal path allows more oppotunities to screw up the sound, IMO.

    Ern Dog, if you insist upon having a CD changer, a DAC is the answer, not another CD changer. If you like what you already have, keep it.

    EB have you heard any of the DACs out now-a-days. . . very startlingly natural, non-digital, sounding. I've heard a couple of tubed CDPs and wasn't impressed as a matter of fact they were down right to bright and edgy. When passed through my DAC bypassing their internal DAC the music took on a more natural, analog sounding texture.:)
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  • W WALDECKER
    W WALDECKER Posts: 900
    edited May 2007
    My preference has always been a high quality one box Redbook CD player with its own internal DAC. Seperate Dac's require you to ad more cables and connections.WCW III
    Rogue Audio stereo 100 tube amplifier - Lector Zoe preamplifier with 6H30 pi's
    .Audience AU24SE speaker and ic cables- Chord Qutest DAC - Black Cat Silverstar II 75ohm digital cable-Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature system with large bass cabinets to accommodate 10" Seas magnesium woofers.2xhmpsuownoj.jpg
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited May 2007
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    EB have you heard any of the DACs out now-a-days. . . very startlingly natural, non-digital, sounding. I've heard a couple of tubed CDPs and wasn't impressed as a matter of fact they were down right to bright and edgy. When passed through my DAC bypassing their internal DAC the music took on a more natural, analog sounding texture.:)


    Oh, I don't doubt what you're saying at all. In fact, I had a DIP and DAC hooked up to my system once, and it sounded fantastic.

    For me, it's just a preference thing. As I said, I like to keep it simple.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited May 2007
    Welp...you made the move to Tubes. Congrats all around my friend. Now the fun and games begin. Have a good time rolling and enjoying the world of tubes. You'll find many combinations of Tube & SS equipment have various results. IMO all Tube sounds wonderful!!! I like my music clear, defined and as pure as I can find. This is said with consideration of the need for the pounding clarity that SS can deliver. Have fun with Tube rolling and consider a lesser shared secret of Tubers. Play with the bias of your tubes as well as the combo of Tubes. Lower plate voltage at higher volume levels for some tubes sounds better than higher plate volts at lower levels for other tubes.

    You'll see what all the fun is my friend.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited May 2007
    What's a DIP?

    I trust my experience more than anything else, and hearing other people's experience helps. It seems that most people agree that I should focus on upgrading my source or add a DAC before rolling tubes. The only thing I know to do at this point is to get one into my rig and see what it sounds like. I've never heard a DAC.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited May 2007
    Ern Dog wrote: »
    What's a DIP?

    Where I come from, an idiot, i.e. DIP ****!!!
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  • Bill Ayotte
    Bill Ayotte Posts: 1,860
    edited May 2007
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Where I come from, an idiot, i.e. DIP ****!!!

    I prefer goof-tard.:p
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited May 2007
    Early B. wrote: »
    Oh, I don't doubt what you're saying at all. In fact, I had a DIP and DAC hooked up to my system once, and it sounded fantastic.


    I'm talking about this kind of DIP!
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  • Schwingding
    Schwingding Posts: 363
    edited May 2007
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    I'm curious as to why you feel that way.

    It boils down to personal preference. I believe that a high quality CDP can provide the DAC equal to a dedicated DAC, with fewer power cords, remote controls, and cables. If I had concrete evidence I would have provided it with my initial response.
    HT/music rig
    Panasonic PX60U 50" plasma
    Yamaha 5990 AVR
    Onix SP3 tube amp
    bunch of Outlaw 2200 monoblocks
    DUAL SVS PB12+/2 subs :eek:
    Denon 3910 DVD/SACD/DVD-A
    DirecTV HR10-250 DVR
    Onix Strata Mini mains
    Mirage OM10 surrounds
    Polk CSi5 center
    Polk SC80 rear surrounds
    Samsung BDP1000 blu-ray player

    Bedroom rig
    Jolida SJ302a tube amp
    Denon 2910 universal player
    Onix Ref 1 monitors
    Velodyne minivee
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,497
    edited May 2007
    Schwingding wrote: »
    If I had concrete evidence I would have provided it with my initial response.

    You'll never convince anyone anyway regardless of who says what. Only way is for them to hear it, and most folks that are against it won't buy to try. I believe you though, because I have put some good DAC's against my ModWright modded player and it is still here and the DAC's are not.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited May 2007
    yes, trying to "prove" your point is senseless, state it, absolutely. You have to try things, I tried a tube buffer and it worked for the piece of gear I mated with it, what its mean in the end, squadoosh. Except that I like it.

    RT1
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited May 2007
    There are quality changers out there. Not many. I messed up last month
    when a Arcam MCD6 was for sale used for $250.
    I was out of town when it came up, and waited till the end of the next day to go for it. Missed it by 15 minutes. :mad:
    Normal changers are not that great, and prone to breaking. That's
    why there are so many 300 disc changers in pawn shops.
    Always "as is"!
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • candyliquor35m
    candyliquor35m Posts: 2,267
    edited May 2007
    stereo_luver wrote: »
    Play with the bias of your tubes as well as the combo of Tubes. Lower plate voltage at higher volume levels for some tubes sounds better than higher plate volts at lower levels for other tubes.

    I had great results with lowering the bias on my 100 watt golden tube se100. I had the bias plate replaced because a tube was wearing out prematurely and the repair guy said this amp should be biased with a minimum of .40 instead of .48-.52 like the manual recommended but that I might notice a decrease in volume. Crap it could be my imagination but it seems to have more power now at .40 then it did at .50. I'm not saying this will work for all amps but he said it depends on how much voltage is being fed to the bias plate and in my amp the bias plate was getting a high voltage and based on that reading, he calculated my minimum bias setting.

    Might be worth a trip to your repair shop if you're lucky enough to have one and have your bias plate voltage checked.
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited May 2007
    Sony's ES line has some very decent changers. Get one with SACD capability as well. Anything starting with SCD and ending with ES should do the trick.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • MillerLiteScott
    MillerLiteScott Posts: 2,561
    edited May 2007
    candyliquor35m wrote: »
    I had great results with lowering the bias on my 100 watt golden tube se100. I had the bias plate replaced because a tube was wearing out prematurely and the repair guy said this amp should be biased with a minimum of .40 instead of .48-.52 like the manual recommended but that I might notice a decrease in volume. Crap it could be my imagination but it seems to have more power now at .40 then it did at .50. I'm not saying this will work for all amps but he said it depends on how much voltage is being fed to the bias plate and in my amp the bias plate was getting a high voltage and based on that reading, he calculated my minimum bias setting.

    Might be worth a trip to your repair shop if you're lucky enough to have one and have your bias plate voltage checked.


    I know the higher you bias is based upon the Manufacturers recommendation means doody sound.


    What does lowering the bias to a degree do? Does it mean better sound and less tube life? I believe if bias is to low you may blow up your tubes?
    I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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  • candyliquor35m
    candyliquor35m Posts: 2,267
    edited May 2007
    MillerLiteScott wrote: »
    I know the higher you bias is based upon the Manufacturers recommendation means doody sound.


    What does lowering the bias to a degree do? Does it mean better sound and less tube life? I believe if bias is to low you may blow up your tubes?

    That's why I wouldn't recommend doing it arbitrarily. Take it to someone who knows tube amps like the back of their hand and get their opinion. My amp is sounding better and running cooler. For my amp I think it was right thing to do.

    Edit: The manual says to bias my amp with no input or speaker cables connected to it but the repairman said to ALWAYS have speakers connected to it when it is powered up. He also said it is ok to have input cables hooked up to it but no volume of course and he said to bias it after 10 minutes of use/warm up.
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