Preamp question

BamaJohn

I may be clueless on how to search properly, but bear with me please. I have my eye on a set of Polk LSi9's and a Crown XLS 402 amp. Yes, there are likely better amps out there, but not 400Wx2 into 4 ohms for $279 after rebate. I like plenty of headroom and Crown is a known quantity for me (reliable for 20+ years for church PA system). Need a good, similarly fantastic deal on a decent preamp, please. Not going to spend metric ton of cash on anything, something in the $200-400 range would be best for me. Don't need anything fancy, just good solid 2ch stereo audio, planning eventually to get a SACD player but for now will be used with cheap DVD/CD player (was a gift), Dish TV audio channels, and computer / iPod once in a while.

Figured I'd start with solid speakers and amp, grow from there. I've never had any kind of good home system, though I've been involved in and a fan of car audio SQ for 15+ years.

ben62670

Look for a used adcom amp on ebay. Get something like a GFA-545, 555. You can get something decent for about 300 plus shipping all the time. The crown just isn't designed for Hi Fi. They are designed for a totally different environment. As for a pre I would recommend on getting something decent also. I love Adcom amps, but don't really care for their pre's. As for watts that spec means next to nothing in real world Hi Fi. There are many 50 watt amps that would make the crown look like doo doo.

Oh yeah welcome to club Polk

hearingimpared

Welcome to the club. . . that's all I got for now!!!

BamaJohn

Thanks. Will look for those preamps. I expected not many to approve of my amp choice, but I've heard the combo firsthand--good enough for me.

Bill Ayotte

The crown is a pro amp, it is not designed for home use per se......Unless you throw parties with large PA speakers all the time, a crown isn't for you.....The Adcom is a good idea, as well as NAD...They are both high current amps, and the LSi9s need the power from what I have heard....Or, you could go for a integrated....NAD has great offerings as well as many other companies in that range....Cambridge is a choice piece as well from the comments here...Troll the Flea Market man, you will find something there....

ben62670

BamaJohn wrote: »

Thanks. Will look for those preamps. I expected not many to approve of my amp choice, but I've heard the combo firsthand--good enough for me.

You are severely limiting the sound quality with that amp. It may go loud, but you might as well hook up some old cerwin vegas to it with that amp. I'm not trying to sound like an audio snob, but that amp is a very bad match for your speakers. Post your general location, and there may be a polkie around you that can show you the potential of your speakers with a decent amp.

danger boy

BamaJohn, go with the amp you like.. done deal. while it's true very few people use pro amps for home use.. there isn't any good reason you couldn't.

enjoy.

BamaJohn

Location: Birmingham, AL

Please describe for me an amp that would be leaps and bounds better in sound quality for similar money. If it costs 5x more, that's not what I'm in the market for right now. I'm pretty convinced it takes a metric ton of money to make a significant, audible to someone like my wife who doesn't care about audiophile related things, difference. Not trying to be too stubborn, as I would love to be proven wrong and get the right thing for the right money. But I've got firsthand experience with several at least mid-fi amps and the Crown doesn't differ audibly to me with speakers like these.

Either that, or please describe either a HT combo or 2ch combo that would serve me better than the Crown + a separate preamp, for say $400-500, that would give me sufficient power to drive the LSi9s a as they should be driven, and with capability to be rock stable into their 4 ohm load. I would sort of like to have something capable of Dolby Headphone, but that's not a limiting factor as I can buy a standalone unit with that feature. From what I've been reading, finding such a combo under $700 would be difficult, let alone $500.

ben62670

Adcom, nad, outlaw, parrasound. Lots of us buy used equipment to help keep the cost down. As for bang for the buck you would be hard pressed to find something better than adcom. I'm not sure what you listen to for music, but to really appreciate what those speakers can do you should really listen to something with lots of acoustics, and female vocals. You can also look at the Adcom GFA-5400. They go for 200 on ebay a lot, and put out 200 clean at 4 ohms. Remember every 3db increase requires double the watts. Not much gain for twice the power.

dkg999

If you want to go with the Crown amp, so be it. Audio is a journey, don't be afraid to go against conventional wisdom and experiment. If it doesn't work out for you, I think the Crown's resale pretty well, so you shouldn't be out much.

As for pre-amps, I would suggest looking for a Parasound P/HP-850. You should be able to find a used one for $125 or so. Unfortunately you just missed two I sold on the Flea Market. Other good pre's for cheap include some of the Rotel, and some of the older Kenwood's. You should be able to find one of these in the $75 to $150 range. Good luck!

BamaJohn

ben62670 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you listen to for music, but to really appreciate what those speakers can do you should really listen to something with lots of acoustics, and female vocals.

Well, for classic rock I like Eagles, Boston, ZZTop, Van Halen, Def Leppard. You know, super-high-quality engineering, top notch mastering... Dire Straits is good for that, at least.

I've got a bunch of test discs accumulated over the years from Focal, Boston, Chesky, Telarc, and Sheffield Labs. I like everything from pipe organs to orchestral pieces to XM 71 - type jazz, to Johnny Cash. I don't know much about jazz, but just listen to the XM stations and Samford University jazz station, WVSU, and pick out stuff I like to later buy: Euge Groove, Fourplay, Soul Ballet, Jude Cole, Brian Bromberg, Norah Jones. I'm more fond of male vocals and harmonies because I like singing along sometimes, but I like both male and female vocalists. I particularly like small string ensembles, guitar instrumental pieces like the Taylor "Sounds of Wood & Steel" series, and some violin pieces.

Ben, thanks for the PM. I can't reply yet as I don't have 10 posts, but thanks. Can you help narrow me down among the brands you mentioned to some models I can search out?

F1nut

One of these, http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1182807044, just might make that amp listenable. YMMV

hearingimpared

BamaJohn wrote: »

Location: Birmingham, AL

Please describe for me an amp that would be leaps and bounds better in sound quality for similar money. If it costs 5x more, that's not what I'm in the market for right now. I'm pretty convinced it takes a metric ton of money to make a significant, audible to someone like my wife who doesn't care about audiophile related things, difference. Not trying to be too stubborn, as I would love to be proven wrong and get the right thing for the right money. But I've got firsthand experience with several at least mid-fi amps and the Crown doesn't differ audibly to me with speakers like these.

Either that, or please describe either a HT combo or 2ch combo that would serve me better than the Crown + a separate preamp, for say $400-500, that would give me sufficient power to drive the LSi9s a as they should be driven, and with capability to be rock stable into their 4 ohm load. I would sort of like to have something capable of Dolby Headphone, but that's not a limiting factor as I can buy a standalone unit with that feature. From what I've been reading, finding such a combo under $700 would be difficult, let alone $500.

I've seen NAD 2200s for $200 here and on epay. . . you won't get much better for that kind of dough.

John K.

John, it's doubtful that you'll need the power that you're talking about, but be that as it may, if you want it , then the Crown is an excellent buy at that price. Pro amps are certainly also designed to meet hifi standards of flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion and will give you audibly transparent amplification. Presumably you're already familiar with the possibility of fan noise in some circumstances.

F1nut

Anti Audio HiFi Insurgent sighting, who's ignorance knows no bounds. :rolleyes:

Dennis Gardner

Welcome John! The choice of speaker is the biggest factor in how your rig will sound, so use the amp of your choice as long as it will handle the load of the LSi line. Any Adcom, NAD, Rotel, etc preamp will suffice.

Just food for thought though.................900 watt XLS402 Crown amp weighs 11 pounds while HK's 7300 receiver doing around 900 watts tips the scales at over 60 pounds. I guess they do this so they can hire smaller roadies on tour.;)

ben62670

Pretend JohnK is invisable. He hasn't post anything worth reading that I have ever seen.

george daniel

Welcome,,alot of good advice,adcom amps, parasound amps and pre should provide good system synergy,and still come in under 700.00. Good luck in your audio journey,, May the Vulcan be with you.

BamaJohn

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

Just food for thought though.................900 watt XLS402 Crown amp weighs 11 pounds while HK's 7300 receiver doing around 900 watts tips the scales at over 60 pounds. I guess they do this so they can hire smaller roadies on tour.;)

As I understand it, there's two primary ways to cool an amp. One, with massive heatsinks and no fans. Two, with fans and less heatsinking. I don't think the weight of a given piece of equipment is a reliable predictor of the sound quality possible from it. It may serve as a predictor of reliability or circuit stability, but then again one wonders if a circuit is more efficient with the power it uses and wastes less as heat, perhaps it requires less cooling of either type...

BamaJohn

hearingimpared wrote: »

I've seen NAD 2200s for $200 here and on epay. . . you won't get much better for that kind of dough.

I'll check those out. One thing about buying new is I'd have a 3 year no-fault warranty on the Crown.

While everyone's busy telling me what a bad decision I'm making on the amp, I notice few question the speaker choice. Someone tell me what about this particular Crown amp that you've actually heard with your own ears makes it unlistenable, noisy, prone to hum, prone to break, prone to overheat, or subject to audible artifacting and distortion. Is the Crown a poor design, does it use poor quality componentry inside, is it soldered together by one-armed chimps?

Also, is similar disdain heaped on the Behringer A500, or is it in some way superior to the Crown yet still inferior to the Adcoms, Rotels, NADs, etc., of the world.

skipf

I power my Lsi-9's wit a Carver M-500t and C-1 preamp. That combo makes the 9's sound great. You should be able to pick up a set of those for around $500-$700. Bear in mind they are approx. 25 years old, but they are pretty dependable and have very clean power. The C-1 preamp has an excellent phono section if you still play vinyl.

engtaz

Power supplies are in different classes. A and B have big heatsinks and heat up. Class G or rail have less heatsinks and heat. Most, if in budget, Chose A and B.
ex..
Adcom = Class A/B
Outlaw = Class G/AB Higher watts in G

hearingimpared

engtaz wrote: »

Power supplies are in different classes. A and B have big heatsinks and heat up. Class G or rail have less heatsinks and heat. Most, if in budget, Chose A and B.
ex..
Adcom = Class B
Outlaw = Class B/G Higher watts in G

I thought Adcom was class A - A/B!

engtaz

I type badly and don't spell worth a flip. LOL

WilliamM2

And Outlaw makes both Class A/B, and class G/AB, depending on the model.

heiney9

BamaJohn wrote: »

As I understand it, there's two primary ways to cool an amp. One, with massive heatsinks and no fans. Two, with fans and less heatsinking. I don't think the weight of a given piece of equipment is a reliable predictor of the sound quality possible from it. It may serve as a predictor of reliability or circuit stability, but then again one wonders if a circuit is more efficient with the power it uses and wastes less as heat, perhaps it requires less cooling of either type...

You have much to learn young grasshopper.

H9

heiney9

engtaz wrote: »

Power supplies are in different classes. A and B have big heatsinks and heat up. Class G or rail have less heatsinks and heat. Most, if in budget, Chose A and B.
ex..
Adcom = Class B
Outlaw = Class B/G Higher watts in G

Engtaz, there is a big difference between clas A/B and pure class B, just FYI.

Adcom is not class B there are no audio amps that are pure class B. Class B amplification sounds like doo doo.

Acdom is class; A/B Outlaw is primarily class G and H. Lovingly (not by me) referred to as switching amps. Great for compactness and effeciency not so good for top notch sound.

H9

heiney9

BamaJohn wrote: »

I'll check those out. One thing about buying new is I'd have a 3 year no-fault warranty on the Crown.

While everyone's busy telling me what a bad decision I'm making on the amp, I notice few question the speaker choice. Someone tell me what about this particular Crown amp that you've actually heard with your own ears makes it unlistenable, noisy, prone to hum, prone to break, prone to overheat, or subject to audible artifacting and distortion. Is the Crown a poor design, does it use poor quality componentry inside, is it soldered together by one-armed chimps?

Also, is similar disdain heaped on the Behringer A500, or is it in some way superior to the Crown yet still inferior to the Adcoms, Rotels, NADs, etc., of the world.

Pro amps in general are not designed for top end "audiophile" sound. They are much like cross-over SUV's in the sense that most aren't hardcore off roading machines. They aren't built that way or intended for that use.

Will the Crown and Behringer and the like suffice, probably. They are designed to be compact, run cool and deliver adequate sonic characteristics. Personally if you are going to use the Crown don't get the LSi's because you won't get the full sonic potential out of them. If you are using the Crown and plan on getting a more "audiophile" sounding amp soon then might make sense. Of course this is all my opinion and you are free to make up your own mind.

Note my signature quote.......pretty much sums up how I feel and why better components yield a more satisfying audio experience. YMMV.

H9

"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not."--Nelson Pass

heiney9

Now to be more helpful in answering your specific question.

Adcom (except the GFP-750 which is many many levels above the amp as far as quality and sound)
Parasound (the model dkg999 mentioned is reasonable)
Rotel
Kenwood Basic (Model C1 or C2)
Yamaha (older)
Outlaw
NAD
AMC which is similar to NAD in quality, looks and performance (pretty good bang for the buck factor). Company was started by one of the founders of NAD.


Would all be compatible with the Crown and about the same level of quality as the Crown.

Good luck with your search and putting a system together. I have LSi's and they are fantastic speakers, especially when given quality amplification and source.

H9

FYI-Crown is not a mid-fi amp as you stated. It's a Pro amp and those aren't considered (by anyone I know) to be mid-fi.

engtaz

engtaz wrote: »

I type badly and don't spell worth a flip. LOL

H9 READ

heiney9

engtaz wrote: »

ex..
Adcom = Class B
Outlaw = Class B/G Higher watts in G

H9 READ

I did read.........still says on my monitor Adcom = Class B & Outlaw isn't class B either. Just trying to keep the facts straight for others who read this thread now and in the future.

H9