Law School Recommendations

TN_Polk_Lover

My daughter is planning on going to law school next year. She has applied to several schools and is having a hard time deciding. From memory here is the list of places she has applied to and their status:

• Northeastern University, Boston - Accepted
• Univerisity of Cincinnati - Accepted
• Indiana University - Accepted
• Univerisity of Illinois - Not accepted
• Wake Forest University, Winston Salem, NC - Accepted
• University of GA, Athens - Wait-listed
• University of TN, Knoxville - Accepted
• Vanderbilt University, Nashville - Still has not heard from them.
• Richmond University (VA) - Accepted

There were 2 more in VA, but I can't remember their names.

During her Spring Break a couple of weeks ago, she visited Illinois, Indiana, and Cincinnati with my wife. Last weekend, I went with her to Wake Forest to their law school open house. Friday, she went to University of TN, but since it was Good Friday, the law school was closed. We lived in RI for 5 years and visited Boston several times. As far as most Northeastern cities are concerned, we like Boston a lot, at least as a place to visit. Also, my daughter flew to Boston her High School Senior year Spring break because that is one of the places she was considering for undergraduate.

Out of all of those, Vanderbilt is the highest rated, but she is kindof doubtful that she will be accepted there. It is, of course, the closest to where we live, but that is not really the primary concern.

Wake Forest and Indiana are rated pretty high. My daugher likes "big city" life and is therefore leaning a little more to Cincinnati right now. I really liked Wake Forest. It is a beautiful campus and the people there, in typical North Carolina style, were extremely friendly and helpful.

As far as financials, the tuition is pretty much the same at all of those, except University of TN would be much, much lower because it would be in-state for her. Cincinnati, Indiana, Northeastern, and Richmond have all offered some financial aid. She hasn't heard yet about aid from Wake Forest and UT Knoxville.

So here are some of the pros/cons that we have thought about:

Northeastern

Pros:
[*]Boston has good public transportation. She wouldn't need a car.
[*]Northeastern is less competive. They don't give letter grades and they don't rank. (Could be negative for some)
[*]Northeastern has a co-operative program where you work for pay your 2nd and 3rd years.
[*]Offered some financial aid, not as good though as Indiana and Cincinnati.
Cons:
[*]Housing costs would probably be higher than the other places.
[*]She would have to fly to come home.
[*]Not as highly ranked as some of the others.

Indiana

Pros:
[*]Financial aid offered was significant.
[*]Close enough to drive home during breaks.
[*]Small town environment, but large enough to have a Best Buy and Borders Book Store (My daughter's criteria -- not mine!)
Cons:
[*]?

Cincinatti

Pros:
[*]Financial aid offered was 2nd to Indiana.
[*]Close enough to drive home during breaks.
[*]Big City environment which my dauther likes -- my wife wasn't thrilled about this.
[*]Could establish Ohio residency within the first year and tuition would be lower the 2nd and 3rd years.
Cons:
[*]?

Wake Forest

Pros:
[*]Highly rated
[*]Beautiful Campus
[*]Has smaller class sizes and better teacher to student ratio than some of the others.
[*]Close enough to drive home during breaks.
Cons:
[*]Is not sure that she will be offered any financial aid. Might hear more by April 15th.

University of TN

Pros:
[*]Closest of home (except for Vanderbilt)
[*]Even with no financial aid, would be cheapest compared to all the others.
Cons:
[*]May be TOO close. She may be tempted to make "frivolous" trips home when she should be studying. Or come home just so her mother will do her laundry for her.
[*]I think that UT has the largest class sizes compared to the others.
[*]Perception that UT is just a "drinking" partying school. (Maybe this perception is just for the undergrads)


I didn't list Richmond because I think that she has already ruled them out. They were the lowest rated she applied to.

Any thoughts or feedback from anyone would be appreciated!

hoosier21

Indiana and don't look back!

Close enough for easy visits, great school.

Wish her good luck ,she seems to have many options ahead in her live.

Strong Bad

As of now with everything you've put on the table, Indiana would be first choice.

HOWEVER, if Wake Forest comes back with a good financial aid package, I say go with them. If they're highly rated in the Law Community, then she's more likely to score a job with a higher paying firm once she finishes. The bigger higher paying firms look at these schools for recruits.

Congrats on her being accepted and having all these choices. Has to make you feel proud!

John

rskarvan

Indiana. Now, there is IU-Bloomington Law School and IU-Indianapolis Law School. I think IU-Indy is a bit more practical (less theoretical).

schwarcw

Indiana and Northeastern would be fine. I would have recommended Georgetown. An outstanding law school plus the proximity to DC would give her the opportunity for some outstanding internships. (I'm not trying to be funny about that, ala Bill Clinton). Public transportation, proximity to TN, good social environment, etc. all very good to excellent.

cfrizz

Northeastern would be fine, I live right around the corner from parts of it.

I also agree with Carl as far as Georgetown goes.

Congrats to your daughter for having so many choices.

danger boy

how about this law school?

http://www.law.gonzaga.edu/

shack

I have two daughters in the University of TN right now. Neither have much time to party....not that it isn't done, but one is in the college of Architecture and Interior Design and the other is a Business Major and they simply do not choose to waste a whole lot of time. That 180 mile trip from Knoxville to Nashville, gets old once you do it a couple of times. I used to have to drive it several times a month when our home office was in Nashville. It's a nice distance...close enough to get back and forth when necessary...but far enough to make it more than a quick trip.

Lots of good attorneys come out of UT...A couple of my best friends have UT JD degrees and they do pretty well financially. One is the formost legal authority for a specific type of law (towing industry) and practices all over the country and is a lobbyist for the industry in DC. Another is a pretty good criminal lawyer turned Juvenile Court Judge. Another is a Real Estate/Banking specialist. Now they did a bit of partying in their time...mainly before law school...but once they got in there wasn't a whole lot of party time available. She could do worse and the price IS right. Of course being a UT grad myself...I am biased.

unc2701

My college roommate went to Wake Law & I'm from Winston, so here are my thoughts:

Great school, but the town SUCKS. I mean, she's going to want to kill herself there. Oh, and the school is full of life-sucking snobs, but that's probably true of a lot of law schools.

Emlyn

What were the other two in Virginia? The law schools in Virginia are extremely competitive, some right up there with Georgetown. Agree that Richmond should be out of the running with acceptances at the others. With the exception of the top tier national Vanderbilt and Illinois law schools, the others are second tier but all excellent and about equal in a more regional reputation. An important question not mentioned above is what does your daughter want to do in the future? If a job in the Northeast is important, Northeastern would be a good choice. For corporate law, Cincinnati may be a good choice because of the number of large companies headquartered there. Now the field is narrowed, it's probably a good time to focus on what aspect of law each school does best (real estate, medical, patent, etc), and factor that into the decision along with where she would like to practice law upon graduation. In reality, the best choice in a law school is often not the most highly rated, but the one with the best program to suit the individual or one closest to where the student wants to practice law after graduating.

bobman1235

As an undergrad alum of Northeastern, I'll throw my support for my alma mader into the mix

Can't beat Boston as a college town, not that you really have much free time in law school (a friend of mine is at BU for law, and pretty much has no social life). And Northeastern's co-op program can't be beat. In a time when jobs were hard to come by, I easily had a job lined up from co-op, and at a good salary. Granted, again, this probably isn't as much a concern for law school, since by the fourth year you're already working at a firm no matter where you go. But the income in the earlier years definitely helps with living expenses.

Early B.

I'd recommend that she attend the most well known school that she's accepted, and not necessarily the school with the most prestigious law program.

Let's be honest here -- she's gotta take advantage of name recognition, alumni support, and networking opportunities for securing great internships and to land her first job upon graduation. Lawyers are a dime a dozen, so getting good jobs is often based on the "good ol' boy network." Grades and ability are secondary considerations.

cfrizz

I agree with Early. she should do a summer job at a law firm. This will give her hands on experience & if she does good & her grades are good, they will most likely offer her a fulltime position when she graduates provided she passes the bar in whatever state she takes it in.

Some states will waive you in from other states if you pass, and others you have to take their bar exam.

unc2701

Early B. wrote: »

I'd recommend that she attend the most well known school that she's accepted, and not necessarily the school with the most prestigious law program.

Let's be honest here -- she's gotta take advantage of name recognition, alumni support, and networking opportunities for securing great internships and to land her first job upon graduation. Lawyers are a dime a dozen, so getting good jobs is often based on the "good ol' boy network." Grades and ability are secondary considerations.

OK, That's ABSOLUTELY wrong. All the things you mention, exist to a much greater degree within the specific profession. Everyone within a profession knows who the top schools are for it and could care less about it's other programs. Case in point: at statistics degree from Duke is worthless and we'd never hire someone based on the "name recognition" of Duke. Yeah, alumni connections might get you a job selling cars....

Choosing graduate & professional schools comes down to three things:
1)Money: How much do you want to spend on this degree
2)Happiness: How miserable are you going to be at this school for the next 3/4/x years (Nice campus/ good town goes here)
3)Prestige of the program: This largely determines the kinds of jobs & internships you get once you get out.

To a large degree you gotta sacrifice on the first two for the third.

Also, the internships for law schools are pretty rigid- you absolutely have to do them, and your grades determine which ones you can get, and the internships you get determine where you end up applying for a job.

jdhdiggs

Ditto to UNC's comments- A school's "aura" is no where near as important as the programs ranking/rating. Also, interview the schools your/herself. Talk with the faculty. If she really clicks with a prof, then that's the school she should go to. If she enjoys her teachers and her time at an institution, the better she'll do both academically and financially.

Profs can pick up on which students enjoy the curriculam and which ones don't. When the prof needs to send someone on an internship or recommend someone for a position, who's he going to pick?

Early B.

unc2701 wrote: »

OK, That's ABSOLUTELY wrong. All the things you mention, exist to a much greater degree within the specific profession. Everyone within a profession knows who the top schools are for it and could care less about it's other programs. Case in point: at statistics degree from Duke is worthless and we'd never hire someone based on the "name recognition" of Duke. Yeah, alumni connections might get you a job selling cars....

Choosing graduate & professional schools comes down to three things:
1)Money: How much do you want to spend on this degree
2)Happiness: How miserable are you going to be at this school for the next 3/4/x years (Nice campus/ good town goes here)
3)Prestige of the program: This largely determines the kinds of jobs & internships you get once you get out.

To a large degree you gotta sacrifice on the first two for the third.

Also, the internships for law schools are pretty rigid- you absolutely have to do them, and your grades determine which ones you can get, and the internships you get determine where you end up applying for a job.

Let me guess -- either you're still a student or you haven't been in the real world for very long. The good grades and great internships may be true for some law students, but most of them aren't in that position. Every job I've ever gotten was through someone I knew. No potential employee ever asked me what my grades were or cared where I graduated from.

Three things matter most in this order:

1. Who referred you
2. Basic Qualifications -- degree, experience, etc.
3. Level of proficiency at bullshitting your way through the interviews

shack

Grades and and source of education open doors at the beginning...nothing more. After that your career is based on relationships. Who you know and who knows you and/or your work.

jdhdiggs

Guess it depends on the profession. A lot of people care what program you went to AND who you know in both my wife's and my own field. The program will help you open up a relationship network in a field of study which is why I feel the program is more important than the school coming out of college.

unc2701

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Guess it depends on the profession. A lot of people care what program you went to AND who you know in both my wife's and my own field. The program will help you open up a relationship network in a field of study which is why I feel the program is more important than the school coming out of college.

That's dead on with my experience and I hang with a crowd of law school people & it's even more true for them. As for the grades- sure once you're out it doesn't matter a damn bit, but law school is VERY different. For most programs the competition is just getting in. For law school, it's getting in, and getting the internships. For the internships, they base it on your program and your grades.

Anyhow, as for the more general hiring comments, Early B is a little more accurate. I'm one of the primary interviewers for my department and for anyone with experience, I don't care about their grades or their school.

Early B.

unc2701 wrote: »

That's dead on with my experience and I hang with a crowd of law school people & it's even more true for them. As for the grades- sure once you're out it doesn't matter a damn bit, but law school is VERY different. For most programs the competition is just getting in. For law school, it's getting in, and getting the internships. For the internships, they base it on your program and your grades.

Anyhow, as for the more general hiring comments, Early B is a little more accurate. I'm one of the primary interviewers for my department and for anyone with experience, I don't care about their grades or their school.

Agreed.

I guess I'm referring mainly to the law students who aren't at the top of their class, which is most of them. Since they don't have the stellar grades and are less likely to get the best internships, they need to consider other approaches to jump start their career.

This may not be an issue for TN_Polk_Lover because his daughter may be super intelligent. I seriously doubt it, though, if it's his offspring.:eek:


unc2701 -- If I had to do it all over again, guess where I would have gone to college? That's right -- UNC. Bigger school, more name recognition, larger alumni pool, more opportunities for networking, more resources, etc.

ledhed

My sister is going to college in Boston (Emerson College) and loves the city. Of course, everyone is different but she went from our little TN town to Boston and had no problems at all. As for housing, Emerson is about 10K a year so there is some number you can look at as far as that goes.

It seems to me that UT is, even more so than other colleges, all what you make it. I know people who went there, worked hard, loved it and came out with many prospects. There are also those who partied all the time, didn't take it seriously and wasted four years of their life.

I wouldn't worry about random trips home. I live 3 hours away and it is perfect to come home when I need to but too long to have no real reason.

TN_Polk_Lover

Thanks everyone for your input. I will probably email my daughter a link to this post so that she can read the feedback. I think that her interest is mainly in criminal law. She loves to watch CSI shows and she has talked about maybe working in a district attorney's office or something similar.

I understand the comment about Wake Forest having "snobs". Currently my daughter is attending The University of the South, aka Sewanee University near Monteagle TN. It is a very old school that was established by and is owned by the Episcapalean (sp?) Church, although it is not an overtly religious school. Many of the students have parents and grandparents who also graduated from there. Most of the students are from wealthy backgrounds, many from "old Southern money". Not that this is bad, but my daughter doesn't really fit in socially with many of these kids. She seems to get along better with many of the foreign students from other countries. When you drive through the campus, the average student's vehicle is a Lexus SUV or a Range Rover, or maybe a BMW 3 series. My daughter, in contrast drives a 98 Acura Integra.

Don't get me wrong, Sewanee is an excellent school. Academically it is much harder than many other schools. They still grade by the same standards that were used 100 years ago. They have not "dumbed down" anything. It also has a reputation for the students partying, but the attitude seems to be that they work so hard during the week that they deserve a little partying on the weekend. Also, the classes at Sewanee are small. Sometimes my daughter will only have maybe about 12 students in some of her classes. Also almost all of the professors have PHds and the classes are never taught by assistants as in a lot of big state univerisities. The professors are also very accessible to the students and sometimes invite the students to their homes on Friday nights for dinner, etc.

My understanding is that at law school, they grade strictly on the curve, meaning, you can have extremely smart students who are all performing at, say, a 90 to 99% performance level, but because of the curve, at least a few have to get D's, many get C's, fewer get B's, very few get A's, etc. In other words it is very competive and you are ranked by the end of your first year. One of the speakers at the Wake Forest open house said that usually the ranking stays pretty much the same after it is established at the end of the first year.

Anyway, thanks for the input!

Robert

shack

TN_Polk_Lover wrote: »

Currently my daughter is attending The University of the South, aka Sewanee University near Monteagle TN.

And you are worried about UTK's reputation as a party school

Sewanee's reputation as a party school is legendary. I've got friends from Winchester and Fayetteville with stories of some of what has transpired over the years. Not much to do around Sewanee...so the students have to "improvise" entertainment...and they have been known to do it quite well.