ultra-brite tweeters

ilikesound

my tweets (mmc6500's) are on the same plane as the dash mounted in the a-pillars. they are very bright, as they should be. but jesus...ive already tried to tame them by reversing the phase on 'em, and the only way that ive found will work, is to amp them through the actuall amp, using its crossover instead of the one supplied. i can control the level from the gain on the amp, using two of the four channels for the tweeters. this eliminates the rear speakers, though...so how would you go about keeping my rears, and still taming them speaks?
any help is grand.

PoweredByDodge

you should have a +3 / 0 / -3 db switch on the supplied crossovers (unless polk has abandoned such a tuning tool)... click em back a few knotches dude.

ilikesound

already tried it, dude. they're already at -6db....like i said, ive done just about everything and actually bi-amping them with the amp is the only thing that seems to help the situation...mac, any input? don't wanna lose my rear fills here, or my sub..

1996blackmax

Sounds like you need an EQ to tame the peak(s) you have in your system.

ilikesound

can you recommend a good one? for under 300 bucks? and how would i hook that guy up to my pre-existing setup?

1996blackmax

What does your existing setup consist of?

ilikesound

momo components in front, momo 6x9s in back, jlw7 in trunk,
alpine vpower and momo four channel amp, crossovers and alpine head. ipod.

1996blackmax

What Alpine HU do you have (model #), does it have any sort of processing built into it?


If you are willing to spend $300 dollars on an EQ, you might be better off getting a HU with all this processing built in (you will have alot of control, no need for extra wiring, and less chance of picking up noise).... an example would be a Pioneer DEH-P880PRS, this HU has extensive tuning capabilities, including time alignment, built in x-overs, and dual 16 band graphic EQ's. It also comes with a microphone to do its auto EQ, and auto time alingment feature. It is a little more than what you wanted to spend at $450 dollars, but can be had for less. I am actually thinking of picking one of these up to give it a shot.

LINK to 880PRS: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069882_291159496,00.html


Another example, if you do not really care too much about the time alignment (it has this but a very simplified version, with presets), is the Eclipse CD5000. Sounddomain has this one on sale right now for $250 dollars. This is a bargain for this HU. It has a simpler built in x-over (basically the x-over point you choose will be the same for all preouts), the time aligment things as mentioned, and what I really like about it, a 7 band parametric EQ. If you buy the microphone you can hook it up to the unit, it will take a snapshot of your frequency response, and then you can see where your problem areas are and tackle them with the PEQ.

LINK to CD5000: http://www.cardomain.com/item/ECLCD5000

MacLeod

Bi-amping would be the best way to solve this and the easiest if youve already got a 4 channel handy.

1996blackmax

He has already tried this.... he wants to use his four channel amp to to also power his rear speakers.

vawakemonster

I wonder if it could be a phasing problem with the mids cancelling eachother out?! did you try revrsing polarity on one or both speakers?

MacLeod

1996blackmax wrote:

He has already tried this.... he wants to use his four channel amp to to also power his rear speakers.

Im not sure how I missed that? Christ I need to pay more attention.

So now that Ive actually read the entire post my suggestion would be to either lose the rear speakers altogether, buy a 2nd amp for the rears or run them off the head unit.

PoweredByDodge

MacLeod wrote:

buy a 2nd amp for the rears or run them off the head unit.

... the head unit?

Don't make me drive down to whatever hick town you hail from and beat the ever living dielectric out of you.

... 'off the head unit' -- what's this world coming to?

I'd have an amp on headphones if it wouldn't weigh them down...

1996blackmax

I thought about telling him about adding another amp, but that would still leave the problem with the peak in his system. The lowering of the overall volume of the tweeters is not getting rid of the peak, but rather masking it by the other driver's being louder now. I think that he does need some sort of external EQ or going to a HU that has this built in.

I actually found an authorized dealer for the 880PRS today that is selling them for $327 dollars shipped. I followed the link through Pioneer's website. It is back ordered by about a week or so, but I think it is worth the wait to get it authorized.


http://www.abtelectronics.com/product/23015.html

MacLeod

PoweredByDodge wrote:

... the head unit?

Don't make me drive down to whatever hick town you hail from and beat the ever living dielectric out of you.

... 'off the head unit' -- what's this world coming to?

I'd have an amp on headphones if it wouldn't weigh them down...

LOL!! Well I feel that way about rear fill but he's wanting to keep his rear speakers and if he cant afford another amp, the head unit can work.

I thought about telling him about adding another amp, but that would still leave the problem with the peak in his system. The lowering of the overall volume of the tweeters is not getting rid of the peak, but rather masking it by the other driver's being louder now. I think that he does need some sort of external EQ or going to a HU that has this built in.

What Im thinking tho is that if his tweeters are this bright even at -6 db then its not a peak but rather the entire spectrum that too much. A peak at say 8 KHz wouldnt make the whole tweeter sound bright and -6db from it should be enough to flatten it out. To me it just seems like the whole tweeter level needs to come down to below the mids and the best way to do that is with an independant gain.

ilikesound

i have the 9857 model. its got frequency tuning, but its just the silly centre frequency control, not an eq. i wouldn't really trust a hu's eq anyways...id rather stick with another powered unit. i still want the fills, but i don't want to have to add another amp to an already complicated setup. this is the reason i wouldn't want to bi-amp: another amp would cost another x amount that i could spend on something else. like an EQ if that would really help out a lot, ill do that option...

ilikesound

and if i run the rears off the H/U, i can't possibly crank my music like i did before, unless i pan far to the front, thus eliminating the rears, anyways..

1996blackmax

MacLeod wrote:

What Im thinking tho is that if his tweeters are this bright even at -6 db then its not a peak but rather the entire spectrum that too much. A peak at say 8 KHz wouldnt make the whole tweeter sound bright and -6db from it should be enough to flatten it out. To me it just seems like the whole tweeter level needs to come down to below the mids and the best way to do that is with an independant gain.

I understand what you are saying, but in a vehicle you can get some pretty nasty peaks that can make the tweeters sound harsh. This is one of the reasons that I really like the Eclipse HU's that I've had. They allow you to take a snapshot of the vehicles frequency response and see where you may have some problem areas. This can also be done by ear, but it can take a little while to get those areas figured out.

ilikesound wrote:

i have the 9857 model. its got frequency tuning, but its just the silly centre frequency control, not an eq. i wouldn't really trust a hu's eq anyways...id rather stick with another powered unit. i still want the fills, but i don't want to have to add another amp to an already complicated setup. this is the reason i wouldn't want to bi-amp: another amp would cost another x amount that i could spend on something else. like an EQ if that would really help out a lot, ill do that option...

Why don't you trust a HU's EQ? I've been into car audio for a long time, back when you had to get external EQ's as they were not built into the HU's. The HU's that I've owned with the built in processing have done a very good job in the tuning of my vehicle. The equipment I have is not cheap, and I would not have bought it just to run a HU with a mediocre EQ. Trust me, these things do work. I've had guys from work listen to my system and be totally amazed by the sound that can be attained in a vehicle. These are home audio guys who never really thought you could get good sound in a vehicle. A good installations plays a big part in this, but tuning also goes along way as the car is a pretty unfriendly listening environment. The system in my vehicle has a couple of peaks. Without an EQ, it would be very hard to tame them. My HU's PEQ does a great job of bringing these peak under control. Could I get an external EQ and do this, yes, but why? I have a HU that can do this, without the extra work of adding another unit, and without the chance of picking up noise in my system. If I had a HU that I really wanted to keep (some very top end HU's, especially the one's that are a little bit older do not have any processing built in) then and external EQ would be my only option. If that were the case I would try and find a PPI DCX-730 Digital Signal Processor. This unit was very nice, not made anymore though, but can sometimes be found on Ebay, or online for sale forums. The nice thing about this unit is that it did not introduce any kind of background hiss, this can be an issue with going with a seperate digital signal processor using analog inputs.

ilikesound wrote:

and if i run the rears off the H/U, i can't possibly crank my music like i did before, unless i pan far to the front, thus eliminating the rears, anyways..

In a system that uses rear fill, you actually want to pan the sound towards the front, otherwise your soundstage will be pulled back. Think of it like this, when you go to a concert do you face the stage or turn you back to it? In your car if your sound (soundstage) is being pulled toward the back, it's the same thing as going to a concert and listeining to the band with your back to them. The next time that you are in your car put in some good tunes with some vocals, pan the sound only to the front speakers, slide your head towards the middle of the car (assuming that your left to right balance is in the middle) and just listen. You will notice that the singer's voice is in the middle, hopefully above the dash, and all the instruments have their own place on the soundstage. Now do this again, but with the rear speakers on...... you should notice that they are actually interferring with the soundstage.

I do ocassionally run some rear fill in my system, depending on the music I am listening to at the moment. When I do this I have the speakers attenuated a good amount (something like -14db on my HU where my fronts are at 0db's), and time delayed a bit more than the front speakers as well. These settings give the feeling of being in a bigger listening environment. Thing is that I can't really tell that the back speakers are even on, and so they are not really taking away from my soundstage up front. If I go into my presets and turn them off then I can tell that they are gone (I have two presets with identical settings except for one has the rear fill engaged and one does not).

mwh9

Ultra-Brite tweeters? Nooooo!!! Never use cleaning products directly on speakers.

ilikesound

well, yes, i know what it SHOULD sound like, though i prefer in my car, some rear fill. a little more than should be there in maybe your car. because its my car lol. but seriously, i want to keep them just because, and my tweets are still very bright. do we agree that an eq would help flatten things out?

ilikesound

hey, also by the way does anyone know where the midrange extension switch is on the mmc6500's? i can't find it for the life of me. it says that it has it on the crossover in my manual, but its not there. am i missing something? that might help the blending a bit...

1996blackmax

Rear fill when properly setup is properly set up, whether it be in my car or not. The point is to not tear apart the soundstage .

Seems like the EQ would be the way to go.

You did not answer my question as to why you do not trust EQs that are built into a HU?

1996blackmax

Here are a couple of examples for the EQs.

http://www.cardomain.com/item/ECL21010

http://www.cardomain.com/item/KIC03KQ5

http://www.cardomain.com/item/KIC03KQ9

The Kicker KQ9 seem to have more bands in the upper regions where it would seem you would need some help at. The only issue is witht he built in x-over's. Only the sub x-over is adjustable, the other one is fixed at 100Hz. Kind of high I think.

Here is a link to it on Crutchfield's site:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ndQ8Tgtc5J0/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=140&tab=essential_info&i=20603KQ9#Tab



Some from Arc Audio:

http://www.arcaudio.com/arc-05/processors/peq.htm

http://www.arcaudio.com/arc-05/processors/xeq.htm

mwh9

Sorry about the earlier post, thought a little humor was in order. I had a similar problem but, was able to fix it with my HU. I also have rear speakers and really like them, they are adjusted so that they are only fill. If you get another amp and have your tweeters on their own 2 channels, this is only allowing you to turn down a problem. there are more frequencies coming out of your tweeters than the one's that are causing you problems. You probably don't want to loose all of your highs. I'm sure you could always use another amp, but that will not help you with this. A HU with a good built in EQ like some of them that were recommended or a separate EQ seems to be the best choices for being able to adjust the guilty frequencies. I personally like the idea of a separate EQ unit, but this is a possible additional noise source. It seems that the cost is similar, so this might be a choice that you personally have to make. I can't knock a good HU with a built in EQ, but a dedicated EQ with the most control over the spectrum's, that you can afford couldn't be all bad. It might be fun to play with a little also. All of this has been said already, I just thought that I would word it differently in hopes that it would help any at all.

1996blackmax

The beauty of parametric EQ's . Being able to track down and tame those peaks. The way I have my unit configured right now, it gives me 7 bands. If i chose to go the 3-way mode, it gives me a total of 11 bands .

ilikesound

the reason i don't like h/u eq? i dunno, just seems like a more high end model of outboard eq would function a bit better. i see it as the difference between a stock speaker and a component. they both do the same thing, just one is more efficient than the other. h/u on the other hand, well MINE for instance, only cuts back on the CENTRE frequency of the sound that is selected. for example, if i put the frequency at 12.5khz, cutting the treble only is supposed to diminish that frequency alone, but what i hear is a total lack of response from the entire treble range. so im skeptical. i feel like an eq that i can tweak to my heart's content is going to help me a lot more than the one i "already have".

ilikesound

blackmax- this eq...http://www.arcaudio.com/arc-05/processors/xeq.htm
is that the same size as my head unit? could i theoretically put that guy under my h/u?

1996blackmax

The reason why you are experiencing that is that the Q value for those frequencies is very wide. Take my HU's parametric EQ, I can make the Q value pretty wide or pretty narrow, meaning it can affect the band I selected and many more or pretty much stay very close to the band I choose. This can be very helpful as peaks in a system can vary in frequency width. What Alpine has in that HU is not an EQ, just glorified bass and treble controls that claim to give you alot of control. The last CD player from Alpine I had that had any real processing built in was my CDA-9835, that thing had a 5 band PEQ and a few more things.


Anyway, if I were to go with a simple outboard EQ that Arc or the Arc PEQ-7 would probably be the one I would choose. That XEQ is a half din... they have the plate to make it a full din, but then you also have to get the x-over to fill in the rest of the plate that it mounts to.

http://www.arcaudio.com/arc-05/accessories/arc_idxxeq.htm.

Give the Arc Audio guys a call. I've called them up a couple of times and they have been very helpful.

contact page: http://www.arcaudio.com/arc-05/contact-us.htm

MacLeod

Check out Audiocontrol. Theyve also got quite a few nice pieces.

http://www.mobileaudiocontrol.com/dept.asp?d_id=5248&l1=5248

ilikesound

im really looking into something that i can stick right under the h/u itself. almost like if you had a dvd player under a h/u. i have two full spaces? to work with, and my plate has a little tray under it to take up the room that the h/u doesnt. i have an accord 2000 lx if that helps any...