Adding an amp to your system

powerlord

You see in my sig what reciever I have,it's rated at 140 wpc.I want a cleaner sound and more headroom,how much power do I need to achieve a difference from the power I have already?Alot of people have told me I don't need any more power than I have but I see other people on the forums with more power than I have with power amps,is the recievers power going to be bypassed and used as a preamp while the amp is used as main power?I'm new at this so be easy!:D I want a very aggressive clean powerful sound and I have that up to a certain point,then it just sounds like noise out of control.

sickicw

powerlord wrote:

You see in my sig what reciever I have,it's rated at 140 wpc.I want a cleaner sound and more headroom,how much power do I need to achieve a difference from the power I have already?Alot of people have told me I don't need any more power than I have but I see other people on the forums with more power than I have with power amps,is the recievers power going to be bypassed and used as a preamp while the amp is used as main power?I'm new at this so be easy!:D I want a very aggressive clean powerful sound and I have that up to a certain point,then it just sounds like noise out of control.

Its not so much how much power, but rather the ratio of how much power it puts out between 8 and 4 ohms (and in some cases 2 ohms).

Also what is important is that the amp is starved for current (this will limit dynamic range). Solutions for this are to get a detecated power line to your amp, or a more expensive and less usefull solution is to include a large transformer in (or hooked up to the power line) the amp.

bassaholic

powerlord wrote:

Alot of people have told me I don't need any more power than I have but I see other people on the forums with more power than I have with power amps,is the recievers power going to be bypassed and used as a preamp while the amp is used as main power?

I won't comment on the amount of power you have or need but I will say I have a DENON 3805 rated at 120wpc@8ohms and I thought that was enough power. Since adding external amps. There is no comparison. A night and day difference in sound quality and volume. And yes, now my Denon is basically an overpriced pre-amp. Another note, rarely do I use my amps to there full potential so if you're happy with your set-up...save your money. Hope this helps, Steve

cfrizz

Hi Powerlord.

Read this thread for all the debate about whether or not you should add an amplifier.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50128

I will always fall on the side of the more power you have the better your system will sound. 200wpc minimum.

powerlord

I am familiar with more clean power to create better sound in car audio and I guess that it would also coincide with home audio.After reading the thread you told me about, it's obvious that I want more power,I watch alot of movies so I'm guessing I need to look for a 200wpc or better 5 ch amp?Could you suggest any of these?

sickicw

what is your budget?

powerlord

No more than 700

cfrizz

Then you will want to look in the used market for Rotel, Parasound, Outlaw, Sunfire. The list is endless. Check out Audiogon & keep an eye open here on the flea market. You never know when someone is going to sell something.

josh_parsons626

Hey man go with cfrizz's advice. I'm a newbie here too but I've heard nothing but good things about Outlaw Audio. That's actually the amp I'll be purchasing.

Deadof_knight

My Denon 3300 is a overpriced preamp now as well, and I like it seperate amps are THE ONLY WAY TO GO ! IMHO now! You can get some nice amp online for not too much...... just be patient I bought a Yamaha MX-830 for 160 bucks and thats 170 wpc rms and you can run 3 pairs if you like. Im not sure what your budget it because there are alot nicer ones out there, sunfire, cinema and the list goes on.

powerlord

I'm kinda mixed up here.I have heard that you only hear a difference in your sound when you double your wpc,i've seen this in several threads,so if I'm pushing 140wpc then what is going to be the difference at 200 wpc?Is it the voltage at that specific ohm load?I know that there are recievers out there that claim they push alot of wpc but in reality due to poor circuitry they don't do anywhere near their rated wpc.I did alot of research on the reciever I have and it actually does more than rated power at 8 ohms.The amps I've been looking at in my price range are mostly 150 wpc at 8ohm and almost or over double that at 4ohm,is there really going to be a difference there?And how do you get your power at 4ohm with all of your drivers in your towers equaling 8ohms?

snow

powerlord wrote:

I am familiar with more clean power to create better sound in car audio and I guess that it would also coincide with home audio.After reading the thread you told me about, it's obvious that I want more power,I watch alot of movies so I'm guessing I need to look for a 200wpc or better 5 ch amp?Could you suggest any of these?

Actually if I were you I would be looking into getting a 2 channel amp not 5. considering your budget. those are the channels that need most of the power, your surround channels use very little compared to your mains.

And your receiver should easily be able to keep up with the demands that the sides and center need because all power normally going to the mains will be provided by the seperate amp.

If possible try to borrow for a hour or two a buddys amp that is rated at 200 wpc or more and see how big a difference it makes. If it doesnt seem to make a difference then more power may not be the issue here. it may be to achieve the louder cleaner sound you want is to buy speakers that can handle more power and are more efficent.

You had said that at some point it sounds like noise out of control, so thats either the reciever not being able to keep up and clipping or your speakers distorting due to excess power. Usally its the receiver clipping rather than too much power distorting the speakers. But before you run out and buy a seperate amp borrow one first to see if it makes a difference.

Or if you cant borrow one, try to audition one from your local audio store for a couple of days. If worst comes to worst and neither of these options will work then go ahead and buy a nice high powered 2 channel amp used. try it out, if it doesnt help. resell it and get new speakers. REGARDS SNOW

tonyb

Snow and Cathy are telling you the gospel truth.I might add that if you watch alot of movies,to get a 3-channel amp so the fronts are all equal in sound.The Denon will handle the rest.If your still not happy then it is time to bite the bullet and look into new speaks.Upgradeitis is a **** bro.

McLoki

powerlord wrote:

I'm kinda mixed up here.I have heard that you only hear a difference in your sound when you double your wpc,i've seen this in several threads,so if I'm pushing 140wpc then what is going to be the difference at 200 wpc?

Close - you need to double the power to hear a difference in the volume (not the overall sound).

Here are the specs for an R30 speaker ($399 retail):

• Overall Frequency Response 45Hz - 24kHz
• Lower -3dB Limit 55Hz
• Upper -3dB Limit 20kHz
• Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
• Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 150 w/channel
• Efficiency 89 dB

Here are the specs for an LSi15 speaker ($1849.95 retail):

• Overall Frequency Response 22Hz - 27kHz
• Lower -3dB Limit 30Hz
• Upper -3dB Limit 26kHz
• Nominal Impedance 4 ohms
• Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 250 w/channel
• Efficiency 88 dB

Based on those specs the speakers should sound the same if the material you play does not have alot of bass in it or you simply add a small sub to the R30 speaker. Amps are similar when only looking at advertised specs.

Watts are the main thing that is marketed for amplifiers and it does determine how loud it can make your speakers play. If you want to play louder, you need more power for the speakers. There are a number of specifications that go into an amp that affect the sound of the amp (clarity, impact, etc.) that are not often advertised.
Some of them are:

• current (usually peak)
• slew rate
• dampening factor
• amp class (a, ab, g, etc.)
• amp type (solid state, digital, tube, sand, etc.)

The 200wpc that seems to be bandied about here on club polk seems to come from the fact that most separate amplifiers that have that level of power, also seem to be pretty good at the other things listed above. It is not that lower power amps cannot be good at those things, but amp makers like any other manufacture designs products for a certain pricepoint. They often do not want to market a stellar amp for $2000(or more), that is great at the things mentioned above but have the watt rating much lower than other amps at that price point. An example of some manufacturers that have been able to make a great amp and not care about the watt ratings are Krell and Mark Levinson. They both make (or have made) absolutely killer 50 watt amps that I would take over most 200 watt amps made today. Manufacturers who can get away with that though are few and far between.

The amp in your AVR, while it may make the power that they specify, is probably lacking in other areas compared to a separate amp. If you want added clarity, separate amplification is definately a way to help get you there. If you want the ability to play louder - watts and headroom are the specs you need to watch for. (although for volume, if you want it alot louder, you are better off getting more efficient speakers rather than trying to get speakers to play louder with a larger amp)

Michael

powerlord

That's the advice I needed,thanks guys.My mains have two powered ten inch drivers in each with 120 rms amp.Then I have two 6in, one 4in., and two 3/4 in tweets,so there are 4 small speakers running off the Marantz in each tower,would it be a good Idea to disable the amps in the towers when I decide to run an external making them full range?I already have a 12 in. sub for the lows.

powerlord

Ok here's an update on my mains,I called Polk and got a very nice helpful person on the phone that knew about my eosones,seems i've been running them incorrectly,they came with jumpers which I did not have,the tech told me that these will not run properly without these,so I made my own jumpers and whoa!It's very clear and powerful,it's night and day.I'm glad someone said something about speakers or I wouldn't have checked.Thanks Mcloki

cfrizz

Michael, outstanding post!

You are absolutely right, the Krells & Mark Levinsons of the audio world don't want to sell a 200wpc amp at everyday joe affordable & reasonable prices.

And I'm not willing to spend 2000.00 on a 50wpc amp where (to me) I'm just paying for the name.

zombie boy 2000

How come speaker efficiency is so rarely mentioned in these discussions? My Silverlines clock in at 92db and the 50 watts from the Unico P rattles them...

I'd much rather spend any extra cheddar on improving the quality of the watts than moving up to 100wpc or more...

And like I've said before.. the 30 watts from a Monarchy SM-70 Pro sounded far more "detailed" than the 130wpc delivered by a Rotel RB980. And this was with a pair of inefficient speakers...

McLoki

zombie boy 2000 wrote:

How come speaker efficiency is so rarely mentioned in these discussions?

Read the last sentance of my last post. Speaker efficiency is about the only way to get serious volume out of a home speaker. Watts can give you a little more, but if you want twice as loud (10db increase) you really need a more efficient speaker to get it. (Assuming you are starting with around 100wpc or so.)

And like I've said before.. the 30 watts from a Monarchy SM-70 Pro sounded far more "detailed" than the 130wpc delivered by a Rotel RB980.

I would say that there are other specs besides wpc that your SM-70 excelled at. I tried to state that you can get really good amps that are much lower than 200wpc, but you have to know what you are looking for and what will work with your system. If you are looking at a mainstream, midline amp (Adcom, Outlaw, Rotel, Parasound, etc. would all fall into this catagory) 200wpc is a good number to look for to get the other qualities mentioned (slew rate, dampening factor, etc.) at a really good level when you don't know for sure the manufacturer, price point, or rest of the system components that the buyer is matching with.

Michael

zombie boy 2000

Sorry 'bout that McL... Must have missed that last sentence.

It's just that the "200 wpc" mantra can lead a lot of people away from some excellent sounding gear. If your speakers are highly efficient, why not shell out $350 to experiment with something like a Sophia Electric Baby rather than dump the same amount of money into an Adcom 555? That's not to say that one should sound better than other, but why write off a sizable chunk of quality gear because it doesn't aspire to 200 watts?

I know this isn't what you were implying and your points are beyond valid. But not everyone that suggests a 400-watt beast of a man's amp for someone's Rti8's is thinking like you...

powerlord

I just got through listening to my mains on a Rotel RB 1080,the tech came with me and made sure there were no problems hooking this up,the first thing he told me when he walked into my house and saw the room and the gear I have was,"you are saturating your room".There was no real difference to me or him after listening to the Marantz or the Rotel.At low volume I have very nice sound but once you start climbing it just jumbles together.He told me I needed to downsize gear,or get a bigger dedicated room.So It's been narrowed down to the room size and lack of placement opportunity.:(

McLoki

two words - Room Treatments.

ben62670

Anyone ever try Heavy curtains like stage curtains. Maybe they could be setup on a wall, or cover a sliding glass door?

powerlord

I'm glad I found this forum,you guys are very helpful.I have alot of work to do on my system and my room,I love this hobby!

sickicw

take a look at my amp analysis and see if it make any sense...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50298