extra Watts = Clarity

Jack1576

I finally made the plunge and purchased my first pair of Polks. My father had a pair in our living room since I was a kid, so I decided to treat myself after I finished graduate school.

Long story short I decided to go with the Monitor 60s. At the same time I just bought the Denon DRA-397 (80 Watts x 2 into 8 ohms, 20Hz - 20kHz, <0.08% THD - 4 ohms stable) to push the stereo pair. Although everything sounds good, I'm starting to have second thoughts about the receiver.

If I upgrade the the Denon DRA-697 (Power amplifier Rated Output: 100W + 100W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.08% THD)) at 100 watts vs. the 80 Watts I have now, will I notice a difference in clarity? I will never listen to either receiver at full volume, but I do listen to a lot of Jazz and Classical music, which have a wide dynamic and harmonic ranges, and I want capture the best possible sound quality.

ledhed

Well, since you already have preouts on your AVR, get a separate amp instead. You can find nice used 120wpc amps for around $300 all day long and will definitely provide better clarity over the Denon. Of course, you can spend more and get more watts giving you much more headroom and the ability to produce sounds that you may not even be hearing due to lack of power (depending on your listening level - each 3dB increase requires double the power so if you are maxing out your speakers currently, you do not have the available wattage to play certain peaks.)

VR3

Heres my rule of thumb...

If you dont like the sound right now, all adding better components will do is further enhance the sound you dont like.

wallstreet

Going from 80 to 100 watts will not provide any discernible difference, especially within the same company. Do you have any specific dislikes regarding your current setup?

jdhdiggs

Watts don't mean anything unless you're blasting something with strong bass. I had a 2 watt amp that sounded clearer than any amp I own. Additionally, if you aren't cranking the volume, you aren't using the watts anyway. (An analogy: If you have a 500 HP corvette and only drive it 35, how much of that HP are you using? If you pushed the HP to 600, would it improve your ride at 35MPH? Of course not)

Your best bet is to add an amplifier because it offers better amplification circuitry and dedicated power supplies.

madmax

You will probably notice very little difference. Getting clarity is more about the overall level of equipment rather than power. To make a 3db change in sound (the amount of difference you can detect) will take twice the power. You would be looking at 160 watts per channel just to notice the volume difference. (at this point you would be happier although the clarity may not be much better) Better equipment is all you could really do if you want to change your current sound.

madmax

Just checked those two receivers out on crutchfield. I don't think you would hear any difference except when full power was required. Certainly for jazz type music there would be no difference.

Any particular reason behind going with a receiver? Here in the flea market and on audiogon etc you could put together a reasonable amplifier, preamplifier for about the same price as the 100 watter receiver.

reeltrouble1

Maybe you could describe what it is that the rig is not doing for you?

If you were to get better gear, how much might your budget be?


RT1

cfrizz

Welcome Jack. I'm glad to see that you realize extra watts = greater clarity!

I agree with Ledhed, since you have preouts just get a separate amplifier. But I would look into getting 200wpc. This made the biggest difference in my system. I went from 110wpc with my Denon receiver to 205 wpc with a Parasound amp, using my Denon as a preamp. I have never looked back & won't go back to anything less powerful. My speakers have never sounded better.

Here is the amp that taught me what real power meant for my system:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1176842939

You will be able to keep that amp with whatever other receiver or prepro that you upgrade to in the future.

treitz3

Jack1576 wrote:

100 watts vs. the 80 Watts I have now, will I notice a difference in clarity?

Minimal at best. Especially with the Denons and the how loud and what type of music that you play.

However, making a blanket statement that more power means better clarity is not 100% true. Here's an example......go to Best Buy, or K-Mart, or some lower priced outlet for audio gear and look for a "Home Theatre" system that "has 850 WATTS!!!, or 875 WATTS!!!", and then listen to the damn thing. Sound like crap. Boomboxes sometimes do the same thing. Again, sound like crap.

Now, go to a high end store, and check out a 30-40 watt tube amp with some efficient speakers, and whalla....Great clarity, great sound.

Another simple example would be to A/B a Technics 100 watt power amp, right before you hook up a Denon/Carver/or better SS 100 watt power amp. Same watts, different clarity. Wattage may remain the same with a receiver and separates, but in my experience seperates sound better

Don't get me wrong, I'm pushing close to 2500 watts when I am finally exhausted for power in my rig, but that's clean amplification of clean signals....different ball of wax. So, in conclusion, more power doesn't mean better clarity.

Dennis Gardner

Jack1576 wrote:

I finally made the plunge and purchased my first pair of Polks. My father had a pair in our living room since I was a kid, so I decided to treat myself after I finished graduate school.

Chances are your father's Polks were better than the Monitor line. If nice 2 channel music is your goal over movies/HT, I would ditch the receiver and look into used separate preamp and power amp to power better Polks, maybe even some vintage ones.

Jack1576

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Maybe you could describe what it is that the rig is not doing for you?

RT1

Well, I wouldn't say the rig is not doing it for me. I'm still very impressed. When my wife and I demo'ed the speakers in the showroom we were using the 100Watt receiver and a CD I know well. There was a problem with the board so I couldn't use the same comparison with the 80 Watt Denon. Like everyone else said, I figured 20 watts difference with the same brand wasn't going to me a big deal so I went with that version anyway. I thought the "big" Denon might be a bit of an overkill.

The thing is once I got everything set up in my living room I didn't experience the same wow factor in the showroom. Although it could be the fact that my living room is relatively small, and I do experience traffic noise from outside my window here in Brooklyn.

Seems like from what I'm reading here, one model up is not going to make a difference, in order to make a noticable difference I would need a dedicated amp(?)

ledhed

Jack1576 wrote:

Seems like from what I'm reading here, one model up is not going to make a difference, in order to make a noticable difference I would need a dedicated amp(?)

That would be best. Though for the price of the larger Denon (about 5-600 correct?), you could easily get a decent used budget system consisting of a separate preamp and amp which should definitely give you a "wow". If you could swing about 300 for a preamp and 300-500 for an amp then you would be set for awhile and even for new speakers if the bug bites you.

And welcome, I am a Jack also

treitz3

ledhed wrote:

Well, since you already have preouts on your AVR, get a separate amp instead.

Look into it. Do alot of research and ask alot of questions.....everything has a difference on everything. Knowledge is key.
Good luck with whatever you choose!:D

VR3

My amp is only 110 watts at 8 ohms...

Yet it magically keeps up with this pro amp I got thats 275 at 8 ohms.

Go figure.

snow

cfrizz wrote:

Welcome Jack. I'm glad to see that you realize extra watts = greater clarity!

I agree with Ledhed, since you have preouts just get a separate amplifier. But I would look into getting 200wpc. This made the biggest difference in my system. I went from 110wpc with my Denon receiver to 205 wpc with a Parasound amp, using my Denon as a preamp. I have never looked back & won't go back to anything less powerful. My speakers have never sounded better.

I agree with CATHY here. She is telling you the gospel truth period. If you can, audition a seperate 200wpc or more amp with your denon, if it has preouts. And see for yourself that at even very low volumes the bass is enhanced, deeper. mids and highs are more clear, sharp. You will be impressed at the difference in the quality of sound. Then decide if the $$ spent is worth it to you. I also agree with the other people that going to a slightly higher output receiver of the same make is going to be a minimal improvement if it is noticeable at all. REGARDS SNOW

madmax

There is lots to learn here. Give it some time, enjoy your Denon in the mean time, read a lot, play with speaker placement and things will work out. I would never pay that much more for the amount of improvement you might get with the next step up. More than half the sound quality relies on the room and speaker placement anyway. Moving things around slightly can be the difference between enjoyment and disappointment, no matter what the quality of the equipment is. Your next system could be pretty awesome if you learn as much as you can before buying it.
madmax

reeltrouble1

madmax wrote:

More than half the sound quality relies on the room and speaker placement anyway. Moving things around slightly can be the difference between enjoyment and disappointment, no matter what the quality of the equipment is.
madmax

Sometimes somebody just nails it.

Enjoy your rig, the upgrades along the way, and have fun kicking the tires.

RT1

snow

treitz3 wrote:

Minimal at best. Especially with the Denons and the how loud and what type of music that you play.

However, making a blanket statement that more power means better clarity is not 100% true. Here's an example......go to Best Buy, or K-Mart, or some lower priced outlet for audio gear and look for a "Home Theatre" system that "has 850 WATTS!!!, or 875 WATTS!!!", and then listen to the damn thing. Sound like crap. Boomboxes sometimes do the same thing. Again, sound like crap.

Now, go to a high end store, and check out a 30-40 watt tube amp with some efficient speakers, and whalla....Great clarity, great sound.

Another simple example would be to A/B a Technics 100 watt power amp, right before you hook up a Denon/Carver/or better SS 100 watt power amp. Same watts, different clarity. Wattage may remain the same with a receiver and separates, but in my experience seperates sound better

Don't get me wrong, I'm pushing close to 2500 watts when I am finally exhausted for power in my rig, but that's clean amplification of clean signals....different ball of wax. So, in conclusion, more power doesn't mean better clarity.

LOL. True enough with the htib receivers that you can buy at the above mentioned places. most of the claims that say
incredibile amounts of power on a htib system are rating there receivers at max peak power at 1khz or whatever frequency is the most advantageous to them. Not continious output from 20hz to 20khz. Its kind of like saying a ford escort can go 130mph. True enough, except they dont tell you thats wide open going down a steep hill with a tail wind REGARDS SNOW

danger boy

Jack1576 wrote:

I finally made the plunge and purchased my first pair of Polks. My father had a pair in our living room since I was a kid, so I decided to treat myself after I finished graduate school.

Long story short I decided to go with the Monitor 60s. At the same time I just bought the Denon DRA-397 (80 Watts x 2 into 8 ohms, 20Hz - 20kHz, <0.08% THD - 4 ohms stable) to push the stereo pair. Although everything sounds good, I'm starting to have second thoughts about the receiver.

If I upgrade the the Denon DRA-697 (Power amplifier Rated Output: 100W + 100W (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.08% THD)) at 100 watts vs. the 80 Watts I have now, will I notice a difference in clarity? I will never listen to either receiver at full volume, but I do listen to a lot of Jazz and Classical music, which have a wide dynamic and harmonic ranges, and I want capture the best possible sound quality.

Sell all your gear and take up stamp collecting.. in the long run it will be less expensive..

Seriously though.... very few of us are happy or have reached the point where we are satisfied enough with the quality and clairity of sound... thats why we keep upgrading all the damn time. I'm just as guilty as everyone else here..

We strive to reach the clairty of sound changing out this component, that cable, this speaker, that amp, this so on and so on. I love this hobby... but at some point you just gotta stop upgrading and say yeah... i'm done. Now lets just kick back and enjoy the system. It's tough to do though...

mhardy6647

My everyday amplifier is about 14 wpc. No lack of "clarity". No lack of anything with the speakers I use.

If you have even moderately efficient speakers, the performance of the amplifier at low power levels (1 watt and even less) is far more important than its "continuous sine-wave power output" rating. Plus, music isn't sine waves, but that's another topic for another time.

If you're not versed on speaker efficiency (or, more correctly, speaker sensitivity), here's an example. I just looked up the Polk LSi25 specifications. The listed sensitivity is 88 dB. This means that, if you "played" white noise (e.g., FM interstation hiss) through them, adjusting the RMS AC voltage of the applied signal to 2.83 VAC, and put your ear (or a calibrated microphone) 1 meter away from them, you'd detect an SPL of 88 dB. This is not quiet. 2.83 VAC is 1 watt into an 8 ohm load (2 watts into a 4 ohm load, etc.).

Jack1576

Update

I went against the advice of the forum a little here, went ahead and exchanged for the 100 Watt Denon. Now that I have it installed I have to say I'm very happy with the decision. Although I don't notice so much of a difference with my Jazz and Rock CDs (I was happy with those to begin with), Classical music is noticeably better. And that was what I was probably most dissatisfied with. One recording we originally demo'd is of a live symphony performance, and with the new receiver we can hear people shifting in the audience, the flute player inhale before a solo passage and the violin section raise their bows before an entrance. I think that was the wow factor I was missing before. 100 Watts seems to handle the soft sections better, without overpowering the loud sections.

Thanks everyone for your help. I think I have something I’ll be happy with for a while, but I’m not done yet. After reading here I’m realizing perfecting your home audio system can quickly turn into a never-ending arms race.

reeltrouble1

Enjoy your new piece of gear. If you dig classical besides the album you should really discover SACD, this format allows classical music to truly shine.

RT1

TroyD

...or vinyl.

BDT

reeltrouble1

errr.......yep...........guess i was not clear album=vinyl

RT1

Tour2ma

Glad you're happy, Jack...

Do take max's advice and play with the speaker set up. Sometimes even small changes in separation, toe-in, and distance from backwall and side-wall(s) can make a big difference in FR and imaging.

Down the road an outboard amp may make sense, but more likely the speakers will be the upgrade candidate. The new Monitor series is good, but it is intro level.

When amp time does come, remember, it's not just watts that count. It's watts and peak-to-peak amperes and headroom and build quality and etc. These all add up to an improved listening experience. For now your Denon AVR will do nicely.

As with most AVR's, when you run in 2-ch mode, your Denon has a fair amount of muscle since the transformer does not have to supply three (or five) additional amps. Especially the center channel, which is usually equally powered with the mains.

Deadof_knight

A good set of speakers in a concrete room sounds baaaaad a decent set of speakers in a room with carpet and furnitures sounds good ....The Environment your system is in is important, Just like in car audio an awesome sub in a crappy built box is gonna sound crappy......