My New System... Mono!

shack

madmax wrote:

But in stereo, if you had only two trumpets, each on the opposite side of a stage, both playing the same line, wouldn't it end up coming from the center if you played back a recording of it?
madmax

Not necessarily. Two trumpets playing the same line may have slightly different pitch or tonal quality that would allow one to discern the location of the sound. In real life, if you hear two trumpets playing the same line on different sides of the room, does it sound like it comes from the middle or can you hear the difference? It should be the same "effect" whether recorded or live.

cmy330go

shack wrote:

Not necessarily. Two trumpets playing the same line may have slightly different pitch or tonal quality that would allow one to discern the location of the sound. In real life, if you hear two trumpets playing the same line on different sides of the room, does it sound like it comes from the middle or can you hear the difference? It should be the same "effect" whether recorded or live.

Shack nailed this one. Even if they are playing in sync with one another. They will never be perfectly matched in pitch and phase allowing you to distinguish them. Even if all else were equal you would still likely here a difference just due to positions in the room.

Just as an example I have some friends that perform in a small band. In a couple of songs they use two sax players that at certain points will play in sync, but never at anytime does it sound like there is a single sax in the middle of the stage.

madmax

shack wrote:

It should be the same "effect" whether recorded or live.

I don't think it is. What you would end up with from a recording and stereo speakers is that everything that matched on the left and the right would be in the center. The variences would be off to the left and right. It is different in real life because you hear the room ambience clearly. Of course if your stereo speakers are set up properly you will not hear the room ambience the speaker makes within the room. In other words you will hear the room ambience as recorded (right or wrong) only. It is different than having the real sound originating at the left and right.
madmax

PS: I'm only working through these thoughts, not saying you OR I are right or wrong.

RuSsMaN

So which is better, a stereo recording using one mic, or a mono recording using three mics?

shack

RuSsMaN wrote:

So which is better, a stereo recording using one mic, or a mono recording using three mics?

A stereo recording using multiple mikes....

madmax

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa......

madmax

I wonder what this single mono speaker looks like?

I like the idea of a couple 12" or 15" woofers which will dig deep enough that a seperate sub would not be necessary. What kind of midrange and tweeter?

Then again, maybe it needs to be a high efficiency full range driver with a super tweeter and a sub for the real low stuff? Maybe the sub is an open chamber sort, board is the only enclosure?

Does it use off axis pointing drivers to utilize the room or maybe it is just forward firing with the mid and tweeter offset towards the back to make more time coherent?

Big full open sound which utilizes the room while still retaining acuracy is the goal.
madmax

jfb4548

madmax wrote:

I wonder what this single mono speaker looks like?

I like the idea of a couple 12" or 15" woofers which will dig deep enough that a seperate sub would not be necessary. What kind of midrange and tweeter?

Then again, maybe it needs to be a high efficiency full range driver with a super tweeter and a sub for the real low stuff? Maybe the sub is an open chamber sort, board is the only enclosure?

Does it use off axis pointing drivers to utilize the room or maybe it is just forward firing with the mid and tweeter offset towards the back to make more time coherent?

Big full open sound which utilizes the room while still retaining acuracy is the goal.
madmax

When I was growing up my father had his hifi in the basement rec. room. He had a great collection of the music of the day. Lots of jazz and all of the Kingston Trio. This brings back alot of fond memories. Anyway his gear was all English made. Amp and pre were from a company called PYE. For the speaker he had a single full range 12 driver in a custom built cabnet. If I remember correctly the speaker was made by Goodman.

A while ago I talked to McAlister about the amp and he said it was better then most for its age. Oh and a Thornes TT.

treitz3

madmax wrote:

What kind of midrange and tweeter?

Have you looked at (or heard, rather) a ribbon, inverted dome tweeter, like a TNC.....or even a pure buryllium tweeter?

A "wall" (entire wall) mono speaker I'm sure would be a fun project.

Someone had mentioned earlier on about having a speaker for each player or instrument.........That could get very expensive when listening to an orchestra!

Bill Ayotte

Welcome to the forum brother! (Bill from Carver)

treitz3

WWaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzuuuuuuuP!:D

SKsolutions

Think in Horns. Room should be large and live. Any thought to a Mono array with horns on top. Sounds like a sundae. You could fold the woofer in a horn, or use smaller drivers with a horizontal dispersion pattern. If the room is under 20 feet, you could even go bipole. . . .since we are talking insanity.

I've heard a corner loaded Klipschorn that was powered well and run mono in a treated room at the medialab at MIT, and I still remember it being an experience almost visceral in magnitude. That was 15 years ago. I was like a kid in a playpen.

madmax

I'm pondering the use of a pair of Carver Amazings currently in storage. I'm thinking they fit the idea of a mono rig because they utilize the room. Both the woofers and tweeters use rear reflections. This should make them sound big. I'm guessing they would sit side by side with no toe in, tweeters together. Good idea or bad??

treitz3

In theory it still splits the signal, defeating true mono, right?

madmax

You mean because there is more than one driver? I'm guessing it would look like a single channel with 8 woofers and two tweeters. The other alternative is to use one with 4 woofers and one tweeter.

treitz3

madmax wrote:

You mean because there is more than one driver?

Yes, I did. But I just re-read the whole post and the 3dB loss is when you split the Mono into stereo. I wouldn't think that there would be a loss when you take a mono source and supply to a dual speaker system. You are just amplifying a signal, right? Russman might know, he's got some experience.....

gidrah

Sounds like a good opportunity for a single 901.

madmax

gidrah wrote:

Sounds like a good opportunity for a single 901.

Ha ha, I have a pair of those and was thinking the same thing. I'd want to use them as a semi full range deal without the equalizer so I'd still need a good woofer and super tweeter. Pretty much use the 901 for the midrange.

A little testing happened last night. I have a mono record player with a detachable speaker. One of those school transcription ones which plays the 16" broadcast records. The detachable speaker has a 10" bass driver housed in an open back box with 4 piezo tweeters. Not hi-fi quality but completely up to the job it was meant to do.

Anyway, I tried several placement options with the detachable speaker and found that if I put it about 2' away from the short wall, center in the room and listen in the listening position I get really nice bass and a big open sounding stage. Just the right amount of the room acoustics mixing in. I was very happy listening to it. I think I'm onto some good placement here. I had to sit there and go over in my head whether or not missing the spatial cues from stereo was a loss or not. That says something, not sure what.

Now, to do it with good equipment!

madmax

steveinaz

gidrah wrote:

Sounds like a good opportunity for a single 901.

Absolutely.

edbert

I know someone mentioned the Tivoli radio in the coffee shop. I got one a couple of years ago and it is great! The sound is really good considering it's size. I have it at work and hook up my iPod to it and it sounds great. Basically taking a stereo source and converting it to mono. I would be interested to see what a high end mono system would sound like. I'll be curious to see the end result of what you decide to go with.

madmax

Sona wrote:

I guess you found another way to get quick and dirty mono. Still mono gives you spatial cues, just not the ones highlighted and doctored by stereo effects.
Sona

Yes, I had already tried setting my stereo system to mono and listening with the two speakers where they normally sit for stereo. I also tried just one of them where normally sitting. Both ways sucked. I can only assume that mono speaker placement requires a different reasoning than stereo speakers.

My main stereo speakers are SDA-SRS and do not lend themselves to being moved all around. (180 lbs each, 5' tall etc.)

Mix-no-mo

When I am mixing a show, I will do nothing but Mono, but the Stereo advantage in a reference system is undeniable. With Mono, you just can't get the same imaging and depth of field that you can with Stereo.

hearingimpared

madmax wrote:

I've been thinking of setting up an all mono audiophile system. I'm guessing that getting rid of the "mix" could be one step closer to audio perfection. I have no real idea what considerations were made back when people did this.

Tubes are an obvious necessity. (because I like tubes). Maybe one of the amps in the closet like a jolida 60W or a Houston 75W or the McAlister which I haven't yet repaired. (needs speaker posts replaced).

Some sort of speaker. Could be bi or tri-amped. Should probably be big and most likely DIY. Active or passive crossover if bi or tri-amped?

Subwoofer or just a real big bass speaker, not sure. I don't think they used to use "subwoofers".

A source. A CD player and a somewhat cheap turntable to start.


Any input is appreciated! If you know how it used to be done that is a plus but any ideas will get me started.

madmax

Chuck there is a guy in Canada who has an ebay store (don't hold that against him) his name is Don D'Afonso his email address is hearthedifference@sympatico.ca He has as far as I know three very high end systems in his home. One of them is a mono system which from what I recall he has a few thousand mono recordings.

I correspond with him from time to time and I'm sure he'll be happy to help you out with any questions about a mono setup and good mono recordings .

You can drop my name if you please. As a matter of fact he is the fellow from whom I purchased my Timbre DAC and dozens of recordings.

candyliquor35m

There must be something to this mono revival. If I'm reading this right, here's a benz mono cartridge on a'gon for $1300

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1178237191

hearingimpared

candyliquor35m wrote:

There must be something to this mono revival. If I'm reading this right, here's a benz mono cartridge on a'gon for $1300

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1178237191

Chuck this is right up you alley!!!!

madmax

hearingimpared wrote:

Chuck this is right up you alley!!!!

Man, I'm still trying to get the room sorted out to get the speakers in.

But I bet thats a sweet cartridge.
madmax

madmax

I just thought I would post the final outcome of the "mono system" I built.

It turns out I didn't have to build my own speaker or even change the system very much. Although two standard speakers used in mono operation normally don't sound right for mono I found a pair that does. The Dahlquist DQ-10's. In my room they are awesome for mono sources. The two speakers totally disappear and a very wide sound emerges from the center. Most speakers give you a center image but all I have heard seem somewhat narrow with a real mono signal. The SDA's were exceptionally narrow. Other than that it is the standard stereo system.

What this system does well is play all types of older music very well. It is somewhat more defined than the SDA's and more open (mono wise). It also has a much quieter backround. The music just appears.

The best part of this system is that old stuff sounds great! No more listening to all the audiophile cues I tend to look for. Even poor recordings seem to come through as intended rather than sounding like a very poor recording being played on a very good system. Stuff that normally sounds great sound very good but not great. Overall, this is a system where most poor recordings sound good.

madmax

steveinaz

Sounds cool. Do you have the speakers sitting together, or are they spread out?

madmax

They are in the standard stereo configuration sitting on the floor where my 1.2 SDA's used to be. This turned out really well because they do stereo pretty well too. I am using a little polk powered sub with them but it is turned way down. The whole system doesn't reach too low but plays bass notes very musically. I find myself following the bass line (mostly from the DQ-10's) quite a bit which is something I've never really done before.
madmax

hearingimpared

Very cool stuff MM. I have a whole **** load of mono records that I've either haven't heard in many years or haven't heard at all. I would love to hear a really good mono rig.

I just acquired two very heavy boxes of old, very old record albums that I want to clean up and play. I just don't know what speed they are and I'm almost positive they are mono.