http://www.sawstop.com/

hoosier21

keeping the wood working theme of the night going, anyone see this thing
http://www.sawstop.com/
Check out the Hot Dog DEMO

AWESOME

dorokusai

Nice.

Russ - Do you recall what that company/tool was that we were mesmerized with at CES?

RuSsMaN

Something dog, bulldog?

How can that actually work? Amazing.

Midnite Mick

Yeah I got an email with the video in it before. I need to get that before it is too late or I won't be able to count to 20.

Mike

Systems

RuSsMaN wrote:

Something dog, bulldog?

How can that actually work? Amazing.

The SawStop safety system includes an electronic detection system that detects when a person contacts the blade. The system induces an electrical signal onto the blade and then monitors that signal for changes. The human body has a relatively large inherent electrical capacitance and conductivity which cause the signal to drop when a person contacts the blade. Wood has a relatively small inherent capacitance and conductivity and does not cause the signal to drop.

http://www.sawstop.com/how-it-works-overview.htm

dorokusai

A real man would test that product with a wienerschnitzel.

brettw22

Definitely a cool technology........wonder how much it costs.......

Systems

brettw22 wrote:

Definitely a cool technology........wonder how much it costs.......

$2800

Jstas

Saw this when it came out in Popular Mechanics about 3 years ago. At that time it was like $300. But hey, my fingers and such are worth way more than $300 to me. Last I heard though, you could pick it up for around $100. But don't quote me on that.

Jstas

Sartori wrote:

$2800

Are you serious? You sure that doesn't include the saw? I could have sworn I saw it WAAAAY cheaper.

Systems

Jstas wrote:

Are you serious? You sure that doesn't include the saw? I could have sworn I saw it WAAAAY cheaper.

Yes that includes the cabinet saw, sorry..... They do make a contractors saw too. But dont you have to buy the whole saw to get the "saw stop" or can it be adapted to any saw?

hoosier21

Jstas wrote:

Are you serious?

serious

Systems

Never Mind.....

2. Can the technology be retrofitted to my existing saw?

No. Unfortunately, it is not economically practical to retrofit existing saws. The structural changes to implement the SawStop braking system involve a complete reconfiguration of the internal mechanism of the saw. This combined with the contact detection electronics and the cost to have it all installed would probably exceed the price of a new saw.

brettw22

Still, if you do a lot of woodworking it's an incredible savings if you ever need it just once..........

Wonder how much those one time use brakes are though......and I don't get how that brake doesn't damage the blade........

hoosier21

brettw22 wrote:

Still, if you do a lot of woodworking it's an incredible savings if you ever need it just once..........

priceless for a heavy duty woodworker

brettw22 wrote:

Wonder how much those one time use brakes are though......

69.00

brettw22 wrote:

and I don't get how that brake doesn't damage the blade........

even if it is wrecked, small price to pay

Dennis Gardner

It destroys the brake and blade each use. Watch this become the seatbelt/airbag of the next decade. Kinda makes all other attempts at safety devices look pretty lame.

dkg999

At the woodworking trade shows they were actually using a hotdog to simulate a finger and showing it work

brettw22

That must have been a pretty expensive demo for them to keep running through those brakes each and every time they showed it.......

Is it weird to wanna see it in action with a human finger in the mix? lol.......

Hopefully you're not wearing a glove of any kind if you screw up with that thing though.......

shepx2

Kinda makes all other attempts at safety devices look pretty lame.

That it does. Whomever thought the design up should get a medal. Or a weekend at the Playboy mansion.

Jstas

Well, I looked into it some more. When they started out, they were hoping to get some big corporate investor behind them like Black and Decker and initial cost estimates put consumer pricing aroung $300 bucks and they felt that once production was underway, they could cut the price drastically. However, no corporation would pick them up for numerous reasons so they went and found private investment and built thier own saw that incorporates thier technology. I would think that the device is fairly easily adapted but they want to keep thier idea proprietary.

As far as saws go though, without a name like Delta or Porter*Cable behind your saw, not many people that are serious into woodworking are going to give you a second look. Especially when there are other, equally effective safety devices out there. For finished woodwork, the kind that furniture and other finished things are made, usually requires precision tools. Most of the people I know who are into it would rather buy a more expensive Delta saw and use a brake that would damage something that can be repaired rather than see thier work suffer due to inadequate equipment whose only saving grace is whiz-bang safety technology.

dkg999

Some of your production type equipment such as MiniMax, SCSI, Northfield, etc. have licensed the technology I believe. I would guess the liability insurance savings in a production shop might offset the cost. Pretty neat technology no matter what!

brettw22

What damage is being done to any product being cut if the brake engages?

I can't tell if you have to buy only their blades as well......but considering their brand is stamped on the blade I'm guessing it's likely.....

Fireman32

If your fingers get saved it's worth all the money. I had a accident a few years ago with a circular saw and almost lost a finger. I was very lucky but was out of work for 4 months with 2 surgury's and physical therapy. Man I wish that tech was on the saw.

Jstas

Brett, the brakes move fast. The saw blade moves just as fast. That is alot of energy being expended there and the brakes can damage not only blades but also stator assemblies that drive the blades. The brakes cause cause the blades to marr the wood to an irreparable state.

However, the damage that most people are worried about is not caused by a brake but rather low tolerance saws that do not cut precise, fine lines and can throw off measurements which in turn throw off joints. Woodworkers go to great lengths to ensure tight, uniform joints that will not come apart. To get those kinds of joints, they use very high quality tools that last. Delta is pretty much the standard and a similar saw as pictured in the StopSaw site would run you about 3500-6000 dollars. That's alot but to a wood worker, it's entirely reasonable. The difference that gets you is not noticable to the average joe because they don't always know what they are looking for. Guys like F1nut will notice fine, high quality work almost immediatly because they have been looking at it for years. It's alot like stereos. The higher quality stuff costs more but to you and me, the difference is noticable. To others, not so much.



And Fireman, my dad had an accident a few years ago also and almost lost half his hand. He got extremely lucky and his surgeon was one of the best in NJ so he was able to keep all of his digits and retain 80-85% of the motion and strength in his injured hand. He enjoys woodworking very much and a few people here have seen his work. He is very skilled. I would consider him a master carpenter if it was his trade. So I know full well the value of safety equipment. I know a few other people at work who are also fine woodworkers and like my dad, all of them would look at that saw and say "I'm not gonna give up my Delta for that." That says something, ya know? BTW, I'm not just saying things about my dad because he's my dad. I have had people look at furniture he built for me and tell me I was lying because they thought it was made by some high end furniture company. I had my dad sign and date all the pieces he has mede for me so I could avoid such stuff. He honestly is that good.

Fireman32

Glad to hear that your dad made it through a rough accident. I also had a great surgeon as well who did an unbelievable job with my hand and I only suffer some loss of sensation up the side of my pinky finger and I have 100% motion.

mrbigbluelight

Although it does destroy the blade and brake when the safety engages, it would be worth it if it prevented one accident.

The only question I have, though, if "false positive" brake engagements are a a problem.
It's electronically triggered, so does EMF producing equipment cause a problem ? Does Joe welding in the next room cause the brake to engage ?
Voltage surges/dips on incoming power: same question.

bobman1235

It may not be great for professionals because, as John said, it's doubtful that a professional would want to use something substandard with regards to precision.

But this is still a viable technology, most notably for WOODSHOP in schools I would think. They don't need precision, but they sure need as much safety as they can get.

Jstas

bobman1235 wrote:

It may not be great for professionals because, as John said, it's doubtful that a professional would want to use something substandard with regards to precision.

But this is still a viable technology, most notably for WOODSHOP in schools I would think. They don't need precision, but they sure need as much safety as they can get.

Ed Zachary

hoosier21

what do you guys see that makes you think this saw is substandard with regards to precision?

Looks professional grade to me.

I am sure the folks trying to sell a 3,000.00 saw knows Joe weekend shelf maker is not going to buy this saw.

Jstas

I don't think anybody is disparaging the equipment from sawstop specifically. It's just that while the safety technology is certainly shown to work, the saw itself is unproven. On top of that, how much of the $2800 asking price is that safety equipment? They don't really say. It's hard to explain the saw's specifications but the best thing to do is go and find specs on other saws in the same price range and see how they stack up. Then find something above that range and see how that stacks up.

Sure, they have testimonials of customers who rave about the saw but so does every other company out there. Now I'm not saying that a regular joe can't do good work. Carpentry is a learned and applied skill which can be honed with age and experience. When you get skilled labor like that, people use what they know works and will give them the results they want every time. My dad knows his Delta saw and Porter Cable routers will give him the desired result every time. If you show him the SawStop saw, he will look at it for the safety feature but be reluctant to sink $2800+ into it without knowing what it will do. If you are going for a finished product of a certain quality level, you want to have consistent results so that you get the same starting point each time. You can only improve your process once it is defined. To define it, you need to know what you want to do, what you want to accomplish and how you are going to get to that finished point. If you want a fine, precision, hand-made piece of furniture, you need to have quality control steps. You define your goals according to that desired result and you eliminate as many risks in your process as possible. Once way to do that is to get yourself equipment that has a known quantity and a proven track record of giving you the result that is within your defined tolerances.

It seems like overkill to describe a hobby like that but that is how it is. You wouldn't go to a body shop and be happy when the painter busts out the finger paints, would you? I mean, the SawStop is a neat idea but if I walked in to two seperate wood shops and saw a guy with an unknown SawStop vs. another guy with Delta equipment, I'd be more inclined to go with the guy with the Delta equipment because I know, without seeing examples of his work, that he has a measureable quantity in the quality of his work because of the tools he is using. It can be argued that any schmuck can buy a nice saw but most weekend hobbists cannot justify the cost of a $6000 Delta table saw and extensions. It's like the difference between a set of RTi12's and a set of LSi15's. To the average guy, the RTi12 works just fine because it plays as loud as the LSi15 and does the job good enough. For the average audio nut, the LSi15 would be the holy grail over the RTi because while the RTi has merit, it's potential is not as great as the LSi. The RTi would shine when coupled with precision amplifiers and sources as would any speaker. However, the LSi being a more precise example of a speaker has that much more potential and is seen as a better option for those trying to achieve the best results they can...not necessarily what thier budget would allow. To the avid woodworking guy, the SawStop is "good enough" but not great.

The same goes for woodworking. Get the best results you can. To do that, stack the deck in your favor. Get the best equipment you an afford and practice. If the SawStop is the best equipment you can afford than fine. However, how much would you want to take the gamble that you are buying a $2200 piece of safety equipment attached to what amounts to a $600 Craftsman Contractor's saw when you were expecting at least something along the lines of an entry level, professional grade saw from a more well known name? If my business or my own personal level of quality that I worked hard to learn and build relied on that, I'd be less likely to go that route.


Also, what kind of supporrt does SawStop have for the saw? How easy is it to get replacement parts and service? The arbor on my dad's Delta saw bent when he had the accident. After he got fixed up, he called Delta, told the guy what happened with the arbor and the guy asked for the model number and serial number of the saw. While the broken arbor did not cause the accident, it was determined to be subject to a service bulletin from Delta. The guy from Delta sent out the parts free of charge with an instruction set on how to change them and gave my dad the service manual package (something like $300 worth of books) free of charge. He then offered to have Delta themselves send out a certified repairman on thier dime to fix the saw so my dad didn't compromise his physical therapy. Of course he declined and volnteered me to do it which I was fine with. However, does SawStop support thier product like that? Delta has a warehouse full of parts and they support EVERY product they have EVER made. If they don't have the part in stock or can't get it from the original manufacturer, they make it themselves. That is what you get when you buy a Delta saw. You get a company that is proud of it's product, tells you it will work to your satisfaction or they will make it right and whether you are a professional or a hobbist, you get the same level of support. They put companies like Polk Audio to shame in the CS department.

That's the difference between a Delta saw and a SawStop saw.

Sorry that was so long but it's really difficult to explain a complex mentality towards something like a table saw that is ingrained in someone with 20, 30 sometimes 40 years of experience. I'd trust the opinion of that guy over mine because I can't hold a candle to most of the people I know who do woodworking. Knowing what quality control really means and working with it every day, I can see how they would apply those principles to choosing equipment and tell me not to waste my time with the SawStop saw and go with the Delta saw because they know, without a reasonable doubt, that I won't have issues with a Delta saw and it will do what I need it to do. Besides, I can get safety equipment that fits a Delta saw so I get the safety and the precision and none of the risks mentioned above.