Finding out the hard way...

billbillw

...about the B.S. policies of PayPal and Credit Cards when it comes to disputes.

If you receive a defective item, no matter how rare or vintage, don't get the item repaired and expect to claim the repair costs!

It turns out that the only way PayPal, MasterCard, Visa, Discovery, American Express, etc. will handle your claim is to have you return the merchandise for a full refund. No partial refunds for repair.

I'm screwed! I won an Ebay auction last year for a package deal for a B&K Preamp, 2-ch Amp, and a CAL DX-1, all of which, you saw for sale here in the F.M.

When received, the items were in great shape cosmetically, but the amp and the preamp had minor problems (Pre phono section didn't work, and the amp had some distortion and high DC offset).

The seller would not accept a return for a full refund. He had over-charged on shipping and of course wanted to keep all of that. He also wanted me to pay for return shipping. To return to him would have cost me $140-$150 (his $99 shipping cost and my $40-$50 to return the items). I said no way! He sold me items that didn't work and I wanted him to refund the whole amount or split the cost of repairs. He wouldn't have anything to do with that notion. I also offered for him to split the shipping costs and refund all but $50 of my original cost. He still said no.
So I gave up talking to him.

Here is where I made the mistake. I said to myself, I'd rather spend $200 to repair the items than loose $150 and have nothing. So I sent them off to B&K for repair and figured when I knew how much the repair would be, I could file a claim with PayPal or my MasterCard. The total cost of repairing both the Pre and the Amp was $264 which didn't include the cost of me shipping them to Buffalo. I wrote that off (about $30).

So, I filed the claim. Meanwhile, I sold the DX-1 to Anthony to help pay for repair costs. I eventually sold both the Pre and the Amp after they were repaired. I figured that since I repaired them, I wouldn't be sending them back to the seller anyway.

Now, 45+ days after I filed the claim, PayPal asks me to ship the items back to the seller. All this time, they were supposedly "investigating" and I get a canned response to return the items. I don't think they even read my comments. They never asked to see repair invoices. Total BS. Meanwhile, I also filed with my MasterCard because PayPal was stalling and my time limit was running out for protection under the credit card. Now they are telling me the same damn thing! The components have to be sent back and full refund is the only way they can handle it. Total BS!

I figured out that this whole deal cost me about $70, not including PayPal fees, which I guess is better than the $150 or so that I would have been out if I had sent the items back, but still far from the "good deal" I thought I was getting when I bid on the items. My confidence in consumer protection by the Credit Card industry is severely weakened by all of this.

ohskigod

while I like the fact that if it gets lost in the mail or something, Paypal will protect you, I just accept that a day might come when I get screwed in the same fashion that you did. for me, its worth the risk given the amount of cool audio **** I got that would cost me perhaps 5x as much if I bought stuff of similar performance and quality at retail. you have to think of it on that end, and the 70 dollar loss might not sting

it does suck though, and can see why it eats at you.

billbillw

Unfortunately, my recent problems with Ebay/Audiogon purchases are not limited to this transaction.

I also had a Parasound HCA-1200ii that was a "good deal", but showed up damaged (rear terminals pushed in) and with high DC offset in the left channel. I never bothered to hook it up. I contacted the seller immediately and asked for a refund/return and let FedEx pickup the item 2 days later, packaged exactly the same way it came to me. That was Feb 2nd. FedEx still hasn't delivered the package back to the guy. Wanna see something crazy, look at this tracking:
http://www.fedex.com/Tracking?ascend_header=1&clienttype=dotcom&cntry_code=us&language=english&tracknumbers=997330000012985

18 days and it hasn't made it from Georgia back to Rhode Island. Its actually still in Georgia! Meanwhile, the seller has not taken any steps to refund my money!

I also had a VPI HW-19 that came from Audiogon and was damaged in transit despite having the original box/packing. USPS said it may take 6 weeks to get a check from them. Great!

ohskigod

looks like I'm gonna light a candle and thatnk god I havent had the same luck

that tracking looks ridiculous, and looks as if the bulk of the problem was int he kennesaw GA location. wtf dude, thats insane !!!!!

Early B.

What do you expect? ebay is not a retail store with a generous returns/refund policy.

Every time you purchase something on ebay, you're taking a risk. That's how it is. Don't expect ebay or PayPal to watch your back. Occasionally, you can expect to get screwed on ebay, audiogon, or any other similar online site. It's the price of doing business. You didn't lose very much money, so don't worry about it.

A couple of months ago I bought a preamp off ebay that had a DC issue. The seller suggested that I send it back to the manufacturer (in Korea!!), so I got it repaired and sold it. Lost about $200 on the deal. So what? **** happens. Just move on.

billbillw

ohskigod wrote:

looks like I'm gonna light a candle and thatnk god I havent had the same luck

that tracking looks ridiculous, and looks as if the bulk of the problem was int he kennesaw GA location. wtf dude, thats insane !!!!!

The problem is in CT and RI. They've got the heads up their arse at the Willington location because I called yesterday (19th), they talked to the Willington terminal and the item was supposedly in CT and ready to go out for delivery sometime today. Obvoiusly not because it was later scanned in Georgia.

billbillw

Early B. wrote:

What do you expect? ebay is not a retail store with a generous returns/refund policy.

Every time you purchase something on ebay, you're taking a risk. That's how it is. Don't expect ebay or PayPal to watch your back. Occasionally, you can expect to get screwed on ebay, audiogon, or any other similar online site. It's the price of doing business. You didn't lose very much money, so don't worry about it.

A couple of months ago I bought a preamp off ebay that had a DC issue. The seller suggested that I send it back to the manufacturer (in Korea!!), so I got it repaired and sold it. Lost about $200 on the deal. So what? **** happens. Just move on.

Well, I expected more because the seller had this in his listing:

Seller's return policy:
Item must be returned within- 3 Days
Refund will be given as- Money Back
Return Policy Details- 100% satisfaction is my guarantee..If you are not completly satisfied with your purchase I will refund your payment.

The Guy has 100% feedback, the items were supposed to work. First, I expected the guy to honor his listing claim of 100% satisfaction, 2nd, I expected PayPal to honor their "seller protection for up to $2000" on this transaction.

Obviously, I have moved on because I sold the stuff and made back most of my money, but why should I keep quiet about this? Other Polkies should know about this loophole in the un-"protection policy". It pissed me off, so I'm venting.

Early B.

I hear ya.

One thing I've learned is that a seller's warranty doesn't mean a damn thing, and a 100% feedback doesn't mean much in terms of honoring his/her commitments. It takes a very special seller to offer a refund or offer to pay repairs on a used piece of electronic equipment, especially when the seller believed the equipment was in good working order when it shipped. (I personally only do that on this forum.) Once the item ships, the seller views any mishaps as beyond his control.

Over the years I've grown reluctant to purchase used audio gear off the 'net. I prefer to speak with the seller on the phone before I buy.

billbillw

Early B. wrote:

I hear ya.

Over the years I've grown reluctant to purchase used audio gear off the 'net. I prefer to speak with the seller on the phone before I buy.

I've about reached that point, especially after the last two monthes of headaches. Out of 5 ebay/audiogon purchases, only 2 worked out to my satisfaction and 2 are pending on refunds or insurance payouts.

AndyGwis

I've only had one negative eBay transaction, which I already griped about here, over some NAD gear. Anyway, though it didn't up being nearly the "steal of a deal" I originally thought I was getting, I was able to sell the Amp to recoup some money and am using the receiver (now working 100%) for my office rig.

So, not what I was hoping for, but in the end it was like paying $150 for a NAD receiver, which isn't all-together that bad for my WORST ebay transaction.

RuSsMaN

Wait until you are a seller, and someone pays for something through paypal with a credit card, and then files a dispute for non receipt. They have a guilty until proven innocent policy. A hold is placed on your account, and whatever the amount of the transaction was is reversed (temporarily).

After 3 or 4 days, the goods will have been delivered AND they will have a credit back to the card. At this point, they have the goods AND the money, and you've got a negative balance in your paypal account.

THOSE are fun times. Paypal has always been just a cost of doing business, but I'm really to the point of just shutting my account down.

Cheers,
Russ

Refefer

Tough luck. The whole deal sucks major, but what can you do? I'm sure Paypal/ebay/mastercard are all trying to prevent fraud of some sort with their required return only policy, not to condone how unflexible it is, but they probably require it for that reason.

As for FedEx, well, there's no excuse for that. I'd be mad as hell about that...

I guess it's the big reason I buy most of my stuff on the forum, where people have some clue how to ship stuff and aren't out to screw me. Gotta love staying in the family, eh?

Early B.

RuSsMaN wrote:

Wait until you are a seller, and someone pays for something through paypal with a credit card, and then files a dispute for non receipt. They have a guilty until proven innocent policy. A hold is placed on your account, and whatever the amount of the transaction was is reversed (temporarily).

After 3 or 4 days, the goods will have been delivered AND they will have a credit back to the card. At this point, they have the goods AND the money, and you've got a negative balance in your paypal account.

THOSE are fun times. Paypal has always been just a cost of doing business, but I'm really to the point of just shutting my account down.

Cheers,
Russ

Russ -- what happened in that situation? Did you have to appeal to the buyer to re-send the money? Or did you get screwed?

billbillw

Early B. wrote:

Russ -- what happened in that situation? Did you have to appeal to the buyer to re-send the money? Or did you get screwed?

Yeah, I'm curious too. I sell using paypal frequently, luckily haven't had this happen yet. I always send tracking numbers to the buyer, so it would have to be a real scam artist to try something like that.

RuSsMaN

In the end, you get paid if you can provide a tracking number that shows the item was delivered - then if the buyer wanted to tie you up longer, all they need to do is file again, and say it is damaged, or not as described.

I've been lucky not to have it go farther than I described earlier in the thread.

At the end of the day, paypal doesn't protect buyers or sellers. Paypal protects paypal, period. Someone will pay - the buyer, the seller, both - but not paypal, period.

Cheers,
Russ