What Should I be Listening For?

Holydoc

Went today to a dealership that carries Klipsch, Paradigm, and B&W. Three different types of speakers with three entirely different sounds. Personally my ears did not like the Klipsch. They were a tid bit harsh for me. So I narrowed down my listening to Paradigm and B&W. It was the Paradigm Studio and Monitor floorstanders and the B&W 700 & 800 series floor standers. NOT the diamond tweeters on the B&W. WAY out of my price range.

Well now for the question... What should I be listening for to determine which speaker is better than the other? They sound so different from each other.

For instance the Paradigm sounded more like I am use to (i.e., closer to the Polk's presentation). The B&W's sounded like all the instruments were separated rather than blended. A good example was with cymbals. On the Paradigm, you could hear the tap on the cymbals and the ringing of them. With the B&W's you could only hear a rap on the cymbals and no ringing.

Let me explain it a different way, the B&W's sounded as if the instruments in the recording were separated out of the music, had the resonance/vibration sounds removed, and then projected out of the speaker. Compared to what I was use to, it almost seemed as if some of the music was removed (or just the vibration?). The Paradigm sounded as if all the instruments were being played together with the resonance/vibration of the instruments filling inbetween the notes.

Finally it was difficult to get an exact comparison because the Paradigms were a lot more efficient than the B&W's. I had to crank up the receiver about 5 clicks to get to the same decibel level. This made A-B comparison rather difficult.

Now, back to my question. If you did not know which brands I tried out (in case you are biased by the brands or biased by the fact that one is twice the price of the other), which was the better speaker? I mean is a speaker better if it separates the instruments better or is it better if it blends the instruments?

Too bad there were no LSi's to compare as well.
Help out this listener challenged guy.

dkg999

Holydoc - what I am interpreting from your write-up is that the B&W's sounded a little veiled in their presentation. I'm not a huge fan of the B&W sound, but I've never heard them sound veiled. They might of been hooked up out-of-phase! Detail seems to be a hallmark of the Paradigm speakers, that's what I like about mine.

What you're looking for ......... to be able to set in your home, listening to the speakers you bought, with a big smile on your face!

TennesseeOutlaw

Have you ever demoed any Dynaudio speakers? Is there a authorized dealer anywhere close to you? You might want to check those out.

Willow

what are the chance of you bringing them to your place and giving them a listen in your environment. Did you bring along a cd you are familiar with?

Holydoc

Willow wrote:

what are the chance of you bringing them to your place and giving them a listen in your environment. Did you bring along a cd you are familiar with?

I asked about the return policy. They stated they had a 30 day return policy on speakers caveated with "As long as we can resell them". That leaves a bit to interpretation but I assume it means as long as they are not physically damaged.

Sadly I did not bring a CD with me. I was basically just enjoying the 70 degree weather (I had just got back from Maryland where they had the coldest spell in 10 years) in the convertible when I decided to drive 150 miles to see if my GPS could find a speaker shop in an unfamiliar city. It did great, but I was unprepared.

Holydoc

TennesseeOutlaw wrote:

Have you ever demoed any Dynaudio speakers? Is there a authorized dealer anywhere close to you? You might want to check those out.

No I haven't. The closest dealer is in Atlanta which is 6.5 hours away.

But that still does not answer the question on what I was hearing and what I should be listening for. I mean I would only know if they sound different from another speaker not if they sound better.

Holydoc

dkg999 wrote:

Holydoc - what I am interpreting from your write-up is that the B&W's sounded a little veiled in their presentation. I'm not a huge fan of the B&W sound, but I've never heard them sound veiled. They might of been hooked up out-of-phase! Detail seems to be a hallmark of the Paradigm speakers, that's what I like about mine.

What you're looking for ......... to be able to set in your home, listening to the speakers you bought, with a big smile on your face!

Can't argue with the smile part , but I would like to know what someone who is a true audiophile would be listening for when they start judging a speaker's presentation. Phrases like "layed back" and "fatiguing" is a bit too vague to use for me. Please use descriptors like "can you hear the singer breath? the speaker that you can hear the breath the most is the best speaker" or "does such-n-such song make you grit your teeth or envision the singer?"

Though they could of been out-of-phase, I would say that it is very doubtful since the store was huge and they only sold stereo equipment, they had on-going training with at least 10 reps learning how to install and hook-up systems while I was there (store reps and not customers), and they had a warehouse just full of these babies. I was walking around just smiling at the speakers ranging from $500 computer size speakers to the $20K B&W's.

phipiper10

Doc, I can't answer your question but can say I think I had/am having the same experience you are having.

What to listen for, how do you really know if it's better? Detailed Highs, smooth low end, bright, forward, lean, increased dynamics etc etc. I'm not sure I have an exact grasp on all these adjectives and how they apply to the music and what I hear, yet!

The easy answer is well whatever sounds good to you. For me personally that answer, while probably true, just didn't cut it. It didn't give me any confidence since I didn't think I was qualified to know good from bad or what to listen for.

I've determined getting out there and listening is the only way I'm gonna figure this out and gain the experience needed to make the determinations on what's good for me and what characteristics apply to different speakers etc.

I suspect after listening to a number of different speakers I'll find there is an audible spectrum/grid and I'll place certain speakers at different points in this specturm/grid where each quadrant represents different characteristics. I believe I'll gravitate towards one area of this grid over another and that speaker/speaker type will be for me.

Again this isn't an "answer" to your question but it was "my" answer when I found myself in what I think was a similar situation. I know I've got a lot more listening to do. And that should be the FUN!

Good luck.

dkg999

Well, I don't think I qualify as an audiophile, so I got nothing more to add

I just buy what I like as far as sound quality and presentation. Not very scientific, eh!

TN_Polk_Lover

I would highly recommend to everyone to get the book "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio" Third Edition, by Robert Harley. He is the Editor-in-Chief of "The Absolute Sound" and "The Perfect Vision" magazines.

The third chapter (40 pages worth) is "Becoming a Better Listener". He does a good job of explaining the terms that audiophiles use in describing systems. In each chapter devoted to a particular subject, for example, speakers, he describes what to listen for and points out how a better speaker will sound in relation to an inferior speaker, using specific attributes, such as imaging, soundstage width, soundstage depth, "air" around each instrument, individual bass notes sounding distinctly seperate as opposed to blurred together, etc. He recommends specific recordings to help test different aspects.

I put this book on my Christmas wish list that I made for my wife and daughter. I had seen the book advertised in the Audio Advisor catalogs I get. My daughter ordered it from Amazon.com. This is a fantastic book.

Then, at Mr. Harley's recommendation in his book, I ordered from Amazon "Master Handbook of Acoustics" fourth edition, by F. Alton Everest. This book is also very good. I really love Physics and have always enjoyed studying things like heat, light, sound, etc. This book explains alot of things about sound and does so in terms that most people can understand. There is some math involved, but if you have even a basic knowledge of some algebra, you won't have any problem with it. There are entire sections devoted to how to treat your listening room for better sound, the best dimensions to build a room for sound, etc. Some of the material is devoted specfically to treating a recording studio, but even alot of that could be applicable to a home listening room, including proper building techniques to control sound from getting into (or out of) the room, including HVAC systems, etc.

BTW, I have no affiliation with either of these books, no commercial reason for recommending them. I read both of them straight through without putting them down,they were that good to me.

I guess the best thing to do is take a CD you are familiar with and listen to see which one you like best.

As Mr. Harley explains in his book, if you try TOO hard to listen for specific things, your brain will actually become fatigued and you will sometimes wind up frustrated trying too hard to hear differences. He has a whole section in Appendix "The Role of Critical Listening in Evaluating Audio Equipment Quality." which is a paper that he first presented at the 1991 Audio Engineering Society convention in New York. He explains why "blind listening tests" don't work very well and most of them are flawed in the way they are done. There are apparently some members of the AES who are very stubbornly stuck in the "all amps sound the same, all wire sounds the same" camp. He presented this paper to debunk their reasoning and their methodology.

For example, Mr Harley said (I'm paraphrasing, of course) that in any blind test that the "all sounds the same group" conducts, if any of the participants start to show an ability to tell the difference in whatever is being tested, they assume it is a fluke and that the statistical sampling size (number of times the items are switched) is increased to the point that fatigue sets in to everyone involved and the test will then seem to prove their assumption.

He says that you should limit your analytical listening time to shorter periods, and don't forget to just relax and get "lost in the music". After doing this in different listening sessions, comparing 2 things (speakers), for example, which system let you enjoy the music more. Which one was more emotionally satisfying. Did one system seem to fatigue you or did you have a sense that you could have just kept on listening forever and not get tired? etc. etc.

Well, I don't want to get into copyright infringement, so I'll stop, but everyone should buy Harley's book.

dkg999

TN - that's an awful lot of work! I'm sure the books are great! I'm going to stick to the "if Doug likes it, Doug buys it" method! Unfortunately audio stores are few and far between and it takes a major road trip to listen to new speakers and gear. That's why events like our Polk get togethers are really nice to have happen.

Holydoc - good luck on your search!

venomclan

Hi Holy,
You never mentioned what equipment was being used with the speakers. Were they equally powered? Were they fully broken in? Essential if it is B&W. They use kevlar in thier drivers that take a long time to loosen up. I recently demoed some 804's with 60 hrs on them and was disappointed.

Just curious where in FL was the shop?
Venom

Holydoc

Equipment being used was a Yamaha receiver (don't know the model number) with no external amplification. Both set of speakers were being played through this receiver via a simple switcher box. Made it very apparent that the Paradigm was much more power efficient than the B&W. I am not very worried about that since I have a nice amp. They were also selling Denon, Rotel, and pioneer (I think) receivers. Was not paying much attention to them.

As far as being broken in, these were their display items. I would assume that anyone that comes in and listens to them have utilized these speakers. Therefore I would assume that they are broken in. I know the Paradigms were fairly used since the salesman stated that they have the upgrades to the particular Monitor in their warehouse still boxed and just came in.

Shop was here:

http://www.allprosound.com/residential/index.asp

tonyb

Pick one that sounds good to your ears.Me....I listen for soundstage depth and width,height.Bass responce,sweet highs that won't fatigue after hours on end.Want them to be coherant top to bottom.Placement of instruments and the crispness of the musical notes.Of coarse some of these are related to the gear your running them on.Will say though...it's a freakin' crying shame running B&W speaks off an AVR.All in all,listen for what pleases YOU,and be prepared next time.:)

cfrizz

HD, it is essential that you bring some of your own music that you know extremely well.

Try to listen for instruments in the music you never heard before. Try to hear if the backup vocals stand out more & blend better with the lead singer rather than sound muffled. Listen for details that you never heard before. (Like hearing the singer breathing)

Sometimes you don't have to listen too hard because these things will jump out and slap you upside the head!

Fatiguing means your description of Klipsch's tweeters. I have the same problem will all metal tweeters. They might mean every ounce of clarity, but it comes across TOO clear for me & after an hours time I've got a headache!

HD, you all ready have an outstanding amplifier that gives you everything that your speakers are capable of. So you should also listen for things that are missing or muffled that you are used to hearing!

This is what jumped out at me when I listened to Rotel's RMB 1077 digital amp. Vocals & instruments I was used to hearing were NOT there or terribly muffled! This is what told me that the amp wasn't for me.

So take some familiar music & head on back there.

Jim Shearer

Holydoc wrote:

For instance the Paradigm sounded more like I am use to (i.e., closer to the Polk's presentation). The B&W's sounded like all the instruments were separated rather than blended. A good example was with cymbals. On the Paradigm, you could hear the tap on the cymbals and the ringing of them. With the B&W's you could only hear a rap on the cymbals and no ringing.

Let me explain it a different way, the B&W's sounded as if the instruments in the recording were separated out of the music, had the resonance/vibration sounds removed, and then projected out of the speaker. Compared to what I was use to, it almost seemed as if some of the music was removed (or just the vibration?). The Paradigm sounded as if all the instruments were being played together with the resonance/vibration of the instruments filling inbetween the notes.

+1 to Cathy's suggestion on taking along some CDs you know very well. How can you judge properly if you don't know the recording?

As to what's better.... I no longer think there is a good answer to that (unless you are listening to really crappy speakers.) It's a question of finding the sound that works for you. To figure that out, you need to listen to a wide variety of speakers, including ones you would never consider buying--either due to price or style (too big, too ugly, etc.) If you haven't heard planar speakers like Magnapans or electrostatics like Martin Login, then do yourself a favor & hunt them down. This may open up a whole new world for you.

As an aside: I stopped by a local shop & listened to a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 100 v4's last week. They sounded to me very much like Polk RTi's. Great detail, decent sound stage, nice bottom end, but not all that much better than my Polk RTi 6's w/ a sub. I guess the magic I'm looking for is the 'boxless' sound you get w/ Magnapans. Unfortunately, the maggies are too large for our house, even if I could get by the WAF issue. And I like the high-end Martin Logan electrostatics, but cost get in the way there.

Keep looking. Be patient. You'll figure it out in time.

Cheers, Jim

pblanc

I agree with bringing music that you like and are very familiar with. As for myself, I think you should be listening for nothing. Listen to the music. I think the best speaker is often the one that doesn't seem to have any "outstanding" charateristic, the one that gets out of the way of the music. I have found that if I listen to a speaker and my first impression is "the highs are really sharp", or "that's really impressive bass" or whatever, on prolonged listening I find that speaker tiring and unbalanced. If I listen to it and think "that's really great sounding music" its a good speaker.

joeparaski

TN--I just ordered the "Complete Guide to High End Audio". Thanks for the review, I look forward to reading it.

Joe

Deadof_knight

Pleasant tingling of the ears is what good music sounds like!

Except sometimes you need to feel it as well !

Holydoc

Cathy/Jim,

Both set of speakers, the Paradigms and the B&W's sounded completely different from each other. It was like listening to a group on a large stage with lots of electronics (Paradigm) to listening to that same group in a coffee shop with very little electronics (B&W). I just could not get over the difference in presentation.

As an aside: I stopped by a local shop & listened to a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 100 v4's last week. They sounded to me very much like Polk RTi's. Great detail, decent sound stage, nice bottom end, but not all that much better than my Polk RTi 6's w/ a sub. I guess the magic I'm looking for is the 'boxless' sound you get w/ Magnapans. Unfortunately, the maggies are too large for our house, even if I could get by the WAF issue. And I like the high-end Martin Logan electrostatics, but cost get in the way there.

I have listened to planar speakers and totally loved their sound for low to moderate volume music. The problem I have with them is their HT applicability. The center channels are usually outrageously large and scary looking and timbre matching surrounds are just non-existant. Also they are just not made for loudness with lots of impact.

*smile* I am definitely trying to figure it out.

Deadof_knight

Paradigm are no slackers... I agree with you on the Klipsch sound . The paradigms are a good choice... The bigger the better if you ask me though. Depends on your living room though..... Remodel and make it bigger if they dont fit....

beardog03

joeparaski wrote:

TN--I just ordered the "Complete Guide to High End Audio". Thanks for the review, I look forward to reading it.

Joe

I think I`ll get my read on also....open the dark cave I call my mind !!!!

Thanks for the heads up TN

:cool:

Holydoc

I just want to clear up some of my statements. I have saved up about $5K to upgrade my system (if I can justify it to myself). I have not determined what or when I will spend this money. I had just listened to two well respected speakers and found that they sounded completely different from each other. I was just wondering what I should be listening for.

One of the biggest truths is that you do not know what you are missing until you actually find it. For instance, I could not understand the hype about HDTV until I actually got one. Now I only watch HD. I am just curious on how I should go about finding which speaker is the best.

So the search begins. I just need some clues on what I am searching for! LOL

dkg999

Ummmm, when you get those clues pass them on

I agree with your comments on planer speakers. I love my Magnepan's for music, and I am pretty well satisfied for now with them. I don't see them doing HT well at all, even though Magnepan is trying hard to sell into that market.

cstpeter

Holy, have fun my friend. I wish I had a stash saved up for stereo gear...I envy you.

My only advice would be to spend some of it on a vinyl rig. I think a $1,000 analog rig is one of the best ways to spend money in this hobby (little that I know about it).

Let me know your thoughts on the vinyl digs.

pblanc

Ditto the vinyl rig! With the budget you potentially have in mind, and the quality of the gear you are looking at $1000 probably would be the bare-bones minimum for turntable, cartidge, phono-preamp and we haven't even talked about a record cleaning system. But frankly, I don't think you should consider paying that much. If you did, and found that you really did like LPs, the quality of your analog gear would be markedly inferior to the quality of the rest of your system, and you would soon be dissatisfied.

If you just want to "test the waters" I can sell you a working turntable with a decent cartridge for around $250, or less. If your receiver or pre/pro or preamp does not have a phono stage I can show you where to get an acceptable little phono preamp for $50 or less. For starters, you can get by with a Discwasher for $15-20 to clean the vinyl. If you decided you didn't like vinyl, pay to ship the table back to me (after I tell you exactly how to prep and pack it) and I'll buy it back from you at the same price. That way you can try out vinyl for no more than $350 and get most of your money back if you don't like it.

Will it sound as good as a $1000, a $10,000 or a $???????? sytem? Of course not! But you will get about 85% of the "vinyl experience", enough to decide if you like it ornot.

On second thought, maybe you better disregard this entire post, because if you do like it, you will have opened the Pandora's Box of the Ultimate Audio Money Pit, where $5000 is just the ante. (It will buy you a fairly decent cartridge, though)

Holydoc

Oh no you don't! I am not nearly ready to worry about a vinyl rig or start going in the direction of a 2-channel system. I need to first make the best HT system I can with my limitations and then start worrying about the best musical system.

Uggh... I cannot even believe that I replied like I would consider that!

Holydoc

Well tonight I had some friends over to watch a movie. I was finally hoping to see the second Pirates of the Caribbean that has been sitting unwrapped since it came out. Well I had Eric Clapton Unplugged playing on the system when they started coming in. As it turned out, I never got to even turn on the movie. Everyone was having a good time just drinking wine (and a few beers) and listening to music. So between 6pm and 9:30pm we never even thought about a movie.

I guess my point is, I wonder if I am trying too hard to find something to upgrade. Wine, friends, and Eric Clapton at -15 below reference. What else does a person need? Maybe I should just get some new furniture to go in the Jacuzzi room and leave the stereo alone for a bit. Hmm... will have to think on that one.

Joey_V

Doc,
Are you looking for speakers only or a full HT setup for $5K?

Is this purely for HT and are you buildng or still have a 2ch setup that you will use purely for music?

Joey

Holydoc

Front stage only, Joey. It will be utilized for both HT and music.

Joey_V

So the rears will be taken care of by some other means, meaning it doesnt have to match right?

Front stage, music and HT... a tough one.

I'm thinking....

The Focals that LSi9 has are pretty good from what I heard when I auditioned them. That would get you somewhere pretty far both in HT and music terms. As for BW, you're going to have to spend some deep cash to get anywhere remotely interesting as BW doesnt come alive until the 703 (but then it doesnt have a matching center) or the 804S and above (i.e. D series). The Paradigms are good, especially the Signature version 2 with Beryllium. Other speakers to consider would have to be AV123's gear.

Several speakers can be had from AV123 that sound good for HT and music.. and the price aint bad. Rocket 760s would be a definite good place to start. The Minis are great too... but no center to start out with, unless you want to use a non-matching one... which is fine also.

You could do a Klipsch THX Ultra 2, but this is mainly HT and it doesnt bode well for music.