IEEE 1394 no, HDMI yes?

jakelm

What happened here? When I bought my Mit ws55513 (which was just in '04, not that long ago). It has 2 IEEE Firewire connections. I thought this was the latest and greatest. All of a sudden HDMI is out and Firewire is now a thing of the past? What happened to it?

Jake

BaggedLancer

The fire went out. :mad: Sorry.

PhantomOG

Its the industry's way of keeping everyone in an endless upgrade cycle -- just keep changing the standard connections.

jakelm

If I remember correctly the IEEE 1394 was able for HD, audio and power on and off control.

bobman1235

Firewire (IEEE1394) has been around for over 10 years, HDMI maybe 3. Firewire is an older standard for computers and the like (I'm pretty sure Apple started it), and was haphazardly adopted by the A/V industry when digital devices were becoming more popular. Now that HDMI is out, which is more advanced, why would they stick to an old standard?

jakelm

I know firewire had less connections, but a lower standard? I didnt know that.

bobman1235

I don't know that it's lower, just older. It never quite caught on as mainstream, so I can't say I blame companies for abandoning it. You don't often hear people asking "does it have Firewire / 1394 connectivity??" Most people in the mainstream have never heard of it, whereas HDMI is a pretty big buzzword.

jakelm

Well my Moto 6412 HD DVDR cable box, has 1394. And the Pq is very good and the fact that I can control it through the IEEE 1394 is nice too. But I guess your right , it just didnt catch on.

Lsi9

I use firewire on my mac and my Sony Sxrd from last year has a firewire input as well as my digital hi-8 cam...it isnt necessarily worse than HDMI, it most likely didn't become an industry standard because certain companies didn't want to go with the flow especially since Sony was its original developer(?)

ledhed

Lsi9 wrote:

I use firewire on my mac and my Sony Sxrd from last year has a firewire input as well as my digital hi-8 cam...it isnt necessarily worse than HDMI, it most likely didn't become an industry standard because certain companies didn't want to go with the flow especially since Sony was its original developer(?)

It was initiated by Apple with Sony assistance along with several other companies. I don't believe it was adoption, every DV camera and newer computer has it along with most HD TVs. I believe the multiple names; IEEE 1394, Firewire, iLink; is what doomed it. Also, remember the HDMI is only DVI with audio and DVI is from 1999. DVI can flow more data in comparison to firewire in single mode and more than double in dual mode. Of course, it takes a hell of a signal to require 7.4GBps

EDIT: Firewire isn't dead, it is just used primarily for PC peripherals as a much better alternative to USB

RSTERN

I think I remember reading there is no way of copyright protection with firewire, unlike dvi and hdmi. That is why is did not take off.
Rob

TheReaper

My guess would be economics. IEE1394 only has the bandwidth to carry a compressed HDTV signal and has control capability, where as DVI/HDMI has the bandwidth to carry an un-compressed HDTV signal. For an HDTV display manufacturer, this means an IEEE1394 connection costs a few dollars more than a DVI/HDMI connection (significant design phase savings if you eliminate IEEE1394 from a line). Then add to that, the general consumer lack of interest/knowledge of firewire connections, and you can see why it isn't available.

Gaara

I'm still waiting to get a pre that can handle DVD-A and SACD from my 47-Ai over firewire. I distinctly remember the salesmen at tweeter selling me this unit because you didn't need 6 analog cables for these formats, and pres with firewire were just around the bend.

Jared

bknauss

IEEE 1394/Firewire has a transfer rate of ~800Mbps
HDMI has a transfer rate of 5Gbps

End of story right there. I'm sure the music and movie industries also preffered HDMI due to its copyright security (HDCP).

disneyjoe7

bknauss wrote:

IEEE 1394/Firewire has a transfer rate of ~800Mbps
HDMI has a transfer rate of 5Gbps

End of story right there. I'm sure the music and movie industries also preffered HDMI due to its copyright security (HDCP).

Talking about bandwidth ~800Mbps isn't USB 2.0 more than 800Mbps now?

ledhed

disneyjoe7 wrote:

Talking about bandwidth ~800Mbps isn't USB 2.0 more than 800Mbps now?

USB is actually 480 peak Mbps but it peaks there and id not a steady data flow. IEEE 1394a is 400mbps solid, no ups or downs. IEEE 1394b is 800Mbps. I used to edit off of an external drive using Firewire on my comp. and it ran without a significantly noticeable lag where as I once took it to another computer and tried to use the USB connection; editing was impossible.

disneyjoe7

Thanks for the info. Interesting that Firewire if the speed is there why USB has taken off.

ledhed

disneyjoe7 wrote:

Thanks for the info. Interesting that Firewire if the speed is there why USB has taken off.

Even more interesting is that Firewire doesn't require software drivers. It is all usually covered in one driver for the whole card. Also, you can daisy chain with Firewire. It really is much better technology.

ledhed

Interesting find on Wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt:

During the period they participated with the IEEE p1394 working group, Apple proposed licensing all of their blocking patents for US$3,000, a one time fee only for "the point of first use" or the integrated circuits that implement the protocols. Furthermore, there was a discount if a contribution was made to the IEEE undergraduate scholarship fund. Under that agreement, the IEEE agreed to include the appropriate patents in the standard.

Apple never intended to charge for the use of the name "FireWire". It could be used by any party signing an agreement to use the name for a product that was compliant with IEEE 1394-1995, the original version of the standard. Steve Jobs was convinced that Apple should ask for US$1 per port for the patents that became part of the standard. The argument was that it was consistent with the MPEG patent fees.

The fallout from charging US$1 per FireWire port was significant, particularly from Intel. Intel had sunk a great deal of effort into the standard with the improved 1394a-2000 standard being partially based on work contributed by Intel. A group within Intel used this as a reason to drop 1394 support and bring out the improved USB 2.0 instead.

Simultaneously, Sony and the other backers of the technology noted to Apple that they all had patents too and were entitled to per-port royalties. Under these circumstances, Apple would have to pay roughly US$15 per port to the other FireWire technology developers. The end result was the creation of the "1394 Licensing Authority", a body which charges everyone US$0.25 per end-user system (like a car or computer) that uses any 1394 technology.

jakelm

What great info you all have. I have learned more just now than in the 3 years I have Firewire.

disneyjoe7

Can FireWire power a device like USB can? This may explain why USB taken off where FireWire didn't. I know HDMI doesn't power anything so this will never replace anything on a computer as USB has.

ledhed

Yes, the six pin port (like what is on a computer) has power whereas the 4 pin(like whats on a camcorder) does not. Guess what the two extra pins are for :rolleyes:

disneyjoe7

We are talking about 1394 right? My laptop has one of these but it looks like 4 pins not 6, this explains FireWire fall no power. USB took off with USB memory sticks fast plug anywhere no power adapter needed just Plug & Play IMO

ledhed

disneyjoe7 wrote:

We are talking about 1394 right? My laptop has one of these but it looks like 4 pins not 6, this explains FireWire fall no power. USB took off with USB memory sticks fast plug anywhere no power adapter needed just Plug & Play IMO

Most laptop manufacturers adopted the 4pin for space reasons although it was a poor choice. With the 6pin design, the moving parts are in the cable whereas the moving parts are in the port of the 4pin. The original idea was to not use the 4pin port because it is easy to damage and thus the entire item would need to be replaced instead of just the cable.

Also, if you have XP SP2, you will get decreased speed on certain 1394 connections. Microsoft offers a workaround which I am still researching-it is very vague about the issues and how to correct it.

disneyjoe7

It just seems to me that FireWire took the road of speed where USB took the road of convenience. 6 wire 4 used for data would explain the speed issue over USB 4 pins 2 data 2 power. I would say convenience will win over speed any day. IMO

ledhed

Well, it could have been convenient if it was offered on more comps. Instead, Intel decided not to include it on their chipset which is really what killed it.