System Advice - Center Channel Match

CLR62

Hello,

Last week I had the following system installed to be used for both TV viewing and music:

Pioneer VSX 84TXSI AV Receiver
Polk LSi15 front speakers
Polk RM6902/RM202 center
Polk PSW404 sub

I did not elect to go with rear surround speakers because the tv is in my living room and I wanted to minimze the numer of speakers at my wife's request. Also, because of space contstraints, I elected to go with a small center channel (the TV is over the fireplace and I wanted to avoid having a gigantic center speaker underneath it). All of thee quipment was professionally installed.

I have had a chance to listen to the system a few days and I have some concerns, as folows:

(1) The center speaker may not be up to the challenge of the LSi15s. I am a novice at this but am reading about timbre matching and have some concerns that these speakers may not be a good match.
Any thoughts or suggestions suggestions (including in wall center options)?

(2) I am finding that I miss not having the rear surrounds. I have an old set of polk satellite speakers (don't recall the model, but they are 2000 vintage $700 system speakers). Would these work as rear surrounds, or would I need to get entirely new speakers (I have read timbre matching doesnt matter as much with rear speaker)?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Chris

tonyb

Hmmmm.....I see a few things wrong with your post.
YOUR POSTING IN THE WRONG SPOT!!!
You didn't give too much thought as to your needs and what you need in the way of gear to reach those needs.If your wife is upset over the amount of speakers in your living room,you should have gone in ceiling or in wall speakers.You must keep the lady happy.Your pioneer avr is not going to do justice to those LSI 15's.Your center is mismatched terribly and who installed this without any thought or guideance to your needs or the sound???Now that I'm off the soap box,Welcome!!!Well my friend,lets start from scratch.Give us your room dimensions,your preference to HT or music or both.Ceilling height,If your tv is over the fireplace,your limited to in-ceilling,OR just go no center and I think you will like it better.I take it you like the sound of the LSI'S,how far apart are they?Against a wall?Off the top of my head,and if I was you,here is what I would do.Do not use that center,just run the center from the front left and right speakers.Do an in-ceilling option for the rear if at all possible.Or the lsifx if the wife is ok with it....very important.Get a seperate amp for those LSI's to bring out the real beauty of what they can do.And lastly....never buy a thing from the company that sold and/or installed your gear.....pisses me off that they will just sell you anything instead of helping you achieve your goals.

CLR62

Tonyb,
Thanks for the response. The LR is approximately 25 by 25, but one the rear left corner (that is to say, behind you as you are seated viewing the TV) juts out into another small area which results in the room not being a perfectly square and complicates the placement of rear surrounds.

I will use the system more for TV than music, but defintely want the music to be top notch when I play it.

The LSI15s are on ether side of the fireplace and so are around 7 feet apart (they can't be much further apart, because of a passageway on one side of the fireplace) They are approximately 2 feet away from the rear wall (the fireplace sticks out from the rear wall) and the subwoofer is directly behind the front right speaker against the rear wall. The center is on the mantlepiece (around 4 1/2 feet high) and the TV is approx. 2 inches above the center (or 8 inches above the mantlepiece). Ceilings are 9ft high.

I do like the LSi15s; they sound great, at least when playing cds. I have been a bit underwhelmed with the sound when I am watching TV. Its not terrible, just not what I expected given the cost of the system.

I elected to go with the small center because of space; only after it was installed last friday and I listened and thought "Is that all?" did I really research it and find out it was from a more modest system and probably not matched to the LSi15s. I initially did not go with rear surrounds because we plan on building a theater in the basement and did not want to go overboard in the living room. That said, I miss the rear surrounds

Assuming I want to keep the receiver and LSI15s, and large rear surrounds are not ideal given the room configuration, what are:

Best options for center (freestanding and in wall or just Lsi15s) How deep are inwalls?

Best options for rear (in ceiling or in wall)?

I am assuming the old polk speakers are a "no go" for rear

Any other advice on placement (particularly for subwoofer), although I am somewhat limited by placement constraints for the Lsi15s.

Finally, this is my first experience with a high end (at least for me) system and also my first experience with a programmed universal remote. I mention this because unlike previous systems, I am somewhat at the mercy of the installers when it comes to changing stuff around and have it continue to work/fit together.

Thanks very much.

tonyb

Hey,sorry if I sounded like an ****,I just get aggravated sometimes when I see stuff like this.First and foremost,as I said before,must please the wife.If you are planning on doing a HT thing in the basement,Hold off save some dough and do it right.Center? Don't see how you can have a free standing one in front of the fireplace.I would just go no center for now.Inwalls vary in depth,are you in new construction or an older home?There are plenty of polk speakers you can use for surrounds,but you stated the wife shot down any more speakers in the room.LSIFX surrounds would be ideal but many older models would do such as the fx500 or bookshelves in the RTI line.The reason your not too pleased in the music with the LSI 15 is because your running them off a AVR ONLY.They need around 200 watts min. each to shine.And they are 4 ohm speakers.Can the amp in your avr handle a 4 ohm load? Probably not.If you have pre-outs on the back,get a seperate 2-channel amp for them.Some older CARVER,ROTEL,PARASOUND,OUTLAW,ADCOM should work fine and can be had fairly cheaply.Back to your surround issue.Many options on in-ceilling speaks,with directional tweeters so you can aim them at your seating position.Of coarse,you would have to get the schmucks back to install.If big box style speakers are out,then this is your only option.Experiment with your sub,move it out from behind the LSI'S, try alittle off the wall.Seems like you might have some room accoustic issues as well.Try and get the lsi's as far apart as possible,in your case,even 6-8 inches will be an improvment.Are you happy with the sound on HT? Did the installers set up your AVR or did you?Have a cable box,dish? Digital HD? Back to the sub...I think its on the weak side but lets not go there now,lets get you to be a happy camper.Most here will tell you to start with the best 2-channel system you can afford and then add to that for a good HT system.The Lsi 15 is a good start,but get yourself some decent amplification and you will love them more.:)

wingnut4772

I would also forgo the center if I planned on doing a kick a$$ HT in the basement. Just have the LR a really nice two channel set up and when the urge for 5.1 hits you just go downstairs. With proper placement, a 2 channel HT can sound pretty darn good.

CLR62

Tonyb,
Thanks for advice.

System was completely installed by store where equipment was bought (major national chain)

TV is Pioneer FHD1 with a Direct TV HD DVR

Given this is my first real system, the LSi15s sound pretty good when playing CDs; its the TV audio that's not so great. That said, you are suggesting adding a separate amplifier for (i) just the Lsi15s or (ii) the LsI15s and surround speakers if I get them?

I am assuming it is possible to make the AV receiver eliminate the center channel. I would like to test that if possible without having the installers back. The system is run by a universal remote which I did not program and have no idea how to.

These systems are way more complicated than the last one I bought 10 years ago and for better or worse given my lack of expertise in this area have been somewhat at the mercy of the experts. Definitely need to get smarter.

Would you suggest a better sub or better placement?

Thanks

phoneisbusy

Welcome CLR62,

You mentioned you were a bit disappointed with the the audio while watching TV. Are you referring to DVD playback or Direct TV? A lot of 5.1 material can be directed towards the centre channel so that may be the reason for you disappointment if you have an undersized centre channel.

You should be able to change the setup on your AVR to eliminate the centre channel. The reciever should then split the centre channel signal between the L/R speakers.

Agree with everyone about concentrating the money towards a good HT in the basement.

I know there is an LSi inwall centre channel available but you mentioned a mantle and I'm not sure if implies some sort of wood burning fireplace or what behind/beneath.

Good luck with your setup

Dave

tonyb

Just get a amp for your LSI 15's so a 2-channel amp will do for now.Keep in mind that any amp you buy will also be able to use in your future HT.Go into your set-up menu on the AVR,and change the center to none or phantom.Now,is your Direct tv box hooked up to your AVR by a digital cable ?
Most AVR's are pretty much the same.Try changeing the center to none,check on that cable,move your sub around away from the LSI's and check back here and we will take it from there.By the way,we have a great group here,where are you located? Myself or another member would be happy to come by and assist you in anyway we could.

CLR62

This is all great advice. Thanks.

With respect to an amplifier, would that be a 200 watt stereo amplifier into 4 ohms (which I guess translates into 120 watts into 8 ohms) ? I have seen a Cambridge Audio amplifier that fits that bill. What should I expect to spend on this (I know the cambridge price, but maybe there are better alternatives/prices)?

Will the amplifier make a dramtic difference in sound for (i) audio (ii) tv (assuming the TV will be mostly used for movies) for someone who likes musice but does not have a really sophisticated ear (me).

If I elect to go with a better center (which based on comments above, might not and instead just focus on getting best possible 2 channel sound) would the center continue to be run through the AV while the amp would power the LSi15s?

Yes, I have pretty much only watched 5.1 TV since the installation (Direct TV HD and DVDs). I probably won't watch a lot of regular TV on the new plasma

Also, I just learned just how low fi an ipod is when hooked up to the system. (I am using a dock and the supplied cord that comes with the AV receiver) I am planning on having the installers back (actually, they ran out of time to complete it when they were here initially) to run a toslink cable from my iMac G5 (which has an optical output) to the Pioneer Receiver. The cable will be around 50 feet which is long, but thats what I am stuck with given the computer's location. My family is comfortable using itunes to manage music listening, so I would like to use this unless it results in even worse fidelity than the ipod.

Complicating matters a bit more on the toslink is that I intend to run it through a splitter with another cable going to my old stereo system which feeds the speakers throughtout the house (kitchen, family room, upstairs bedroom, outside). the idea is to have a sytem which works throughout the whole house. Does this sound like a feasible set up? I realize I may have to re-rip my CDs at a higher bit rate than I have currently (which is standard apple). I have air tunes, but it is a bit unreliable currently and the new system is not a direct line of site from the computer so its relaibility will be even worse.

I live in Northen Westchester county NY; hopefully I wont have to drag anybody out here!
Thanks, Chris

tonyb

You want an amp rated at or better than 200 watts into 8 ohm.The cambridge will be pushing it's limits.Ipod is yes,well,not the best,but there are such things to improve it.Squeezboxes etc.You really need to talk to somebody and explain everything that you need before you go and spend more money on something that is inadequate.Any members live by this Gent?
a seperate amp can make a big difference,but the real issue is that by under powering your speakers, will and can damage them.Do you still have the owners manuals for all your gear?By turning off the center in the AVR,your sound that normally comes out of the center will now come out of the LSI 15's.There are alot of hook-up and set-up questions we need to know to help you.Which is why it is better to have a forum member stop by.If nobody lives by you,then you need to go back to the installer and ask him to show you how to change things in your AVR SET-UP menu.And tell him what you want and expect.Ask for more guideance on what would work and sound good.Ask him for options and possibly demo some stuff.5.1 tv quality vary's from state to state also.The way I see it,your unhappy with your sound from the TV AND
you want better from downloaded music sources.And the center issue which we allready discussed.There are many options,for the music server side,to go into in depth here.The TV,we have to know how it is hooked up to better guide you.I am guessing,as is the standard,an optical digital cable is run from the Direct TV box to your receiver.Now, how that receiver processes everything is all set-up in the menu.So off the bat,I would first look there,or have the installer do it and have him show you also.Sometimes when dealing with these big box stores,you have to play dumb,tell them you are unhappy with the sound and something is not set-up right.Read your owners manuals for all your stuff and it will come together in your brain.Be home when they come,have them show you your options in the set-up menu on the receiver.Did you try moveing the sub?How do DVD'S sound in your system as it is now?Gotta run.

edbert

Alright, one thing that can make a huge difference for you is to bi-amp the LSI's with your current receiver. It is a pretty easy process and the owner manual on page 66 will tell you exactly how to do it. Here it is.
Bi-amping your front speakers

You just have to connect speaker wire from the rear surround channels on your receiver(they are clearly marked) and then connect them up to the back of your speakers. Make sure you remove the brass jumpers from inbetween the the binding posts on the speakers as well.

Granted this isn't going to be as good as a high quality 2 channel amp, but it's at least another alternative.

CLR62

Thanks for the advice. More info:

HD DVR connects to AVR via HDMI and TV connects to AVR also via HDMI (and I think maybe component video). DVD player (Pioneer Elite DV46AV) connects to AVR via HDMI and analog (it switches to analog when playing CDs).

I moved the subwoofer and played around with the different listening modes. Not sure if it moving it made a huge difference. Seems stereo and virtual surround (nop center) are the best ways to go.

Sounds like a 200w amp is the way to go. Tonyb, you mentioned brands: what should I expect to pay for this and where would you recommend getting one? Is there a good used market for these?

tonyb

Huge used market.Try E-bay or Audiogon.Audiogon has better sellers and quality in my opinion.Cost can be from 200.00 and up.Older Carvers are probably the cheapest.Sometimes they come up here in the for sale section and I would highly suggest you look there first.Most our members take good care of their gear and would never screw another member.Do you like to listen to movies or music at loud levels ? See what you can find,most here will tell you if it is a good deal or not.Good luck