Upgraded LSi7 rears to LSi15

bbeacham

After having LSi15 fronts, LSiC center, LSi7 rears, and LSiW sub for about 2 years I upgraded the LSi7s to LSi15s last week. Great move. The sound is much more integrated, and just sounds better overall. The added rear bass can be felt in my chair for more punch during a movie.

I have heard over the years many people comment that the rear speakers are not that important since there is little rear channel energy in a movie. This might be true for some movies, but in other movies the LSi15s are most apparent.

So far, on "Master and Commander", "Fifth Element", and "Terminator 3" they have made a big difference in sound quality. Its almost like watching a new movie.

To me, the moral of the story is that, for optimum home theater, all speakers should be identical.

george daniel

congrats and enjoy

McLoki

So, do you have them on boxes or elevated in some way or are they on the floor just like your fronts? Just wondering if it would make a good next move for me as well... Also - what is your crossover set to or are you running your front and rear speakers as large? (is your center at 60 or 80hz crossover?)

Thanks and congrats on the good move.

Michael

pblanc

Sounds like you have a 5.1 setup. Those, including myself, who have suggested that maybe LSi9s or LSi 15s are overkill for rear channel speakers I believe are talking about the rear surround speakers in a 7.1 setup. There are still relatively few Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES titles. A lot of receivers and Pre/Pros have Dolby PSIIxx capability that encodes a rear surround matrix channel to the rear surround speakers from a regular 5.1 digital source. I would agree that the regular surround speakers are pretty important (I am using the LSiFXs). I have tried using various speakers (including LSi9s) for the rear surround channel and I must say that thus far I haven't noticed much difference. Are you planning to sell your LSi7s? Frankly, I am thinking of downgrading my rear surround speakers so I can use the LSi9s in another room.

Sami

using namespace IMHO; //
{

A better result would have been achieved by spending the money on upgrading your SW. In any case, that should be your next move.

}

bbeacham

Sami wrote:

using namespace IMHO; //
{

A better result would have been achieved by spending the money on upgrading your SW. In any case, that should be your next move.

}

Wrong. The LSiW integrates perfectly with the LSi15s, and even with the LSi7s I replaced. A sub is only useful during brief periods of a movie, while the other speakers are in constant use. In fact, unless I want to over amplify the bass I can leave the sub turned off and still have plenty of low end.

Sami

bbeacham wrote:

A sub is only useful during brief periods of a movie, while the other speakers are in constant use.

I disagree, a good sub is very essential to a lot of movies. 15's have decent bass (I have a pair myself on my HT setup) but they can't handle movies without a decent sub. Then again, I'm one of those who like when the clothes are vibrating on you when the bass hits the low notes...

I've tried towers as surrounds but placement is an issue. Surrounds need to be high on the wall and the aesthetics with high mounted towers, oh well. I've notices that with a good sub towers don't bring anything to the table as surrounds. Like I said in my first post, IMHO, so if you find it better that way good for you (but you still need to try it with a better sub ).

beardog03

What are you going to do with the 7`s ?

bbeacham

McLoki wrote:

So, do you have them on boxes or elevated in some way or are they on the floor just like your fronts? Just wondering if it would make a good next move for me as well... Also - what is your crossover set to or are you running your front and rear speakers as large? (is your center at 60 or 80hz crossover?)

Sitting on the floor just like the fronts. All speakers set to large. Even had the LSi7s set to large. If you have the money then upgrade. It won't hurt and probably will be better.

PolkWannabie

bbeacham wrote:

To me, the moral of the story is that, for optimum home theater, all speakers should be identical.

Guess I need to start looking for two more pairs of SRT's

bbeacham

beardog03 wrote:

What are you going to do with the 7`s ?

Probably hook them up to my spare Denon 3805 for an office or garage stereo.

Pepi28

How can anyone say a sub is only good for a few brief periods in a movie. The 3 movies you just mentioned have a whole lot of very low end bass in them which LSi15's couldnt produce with a miracle. IMHO the 15's as surrounds are a big waste of money. I would have upgraded the sub before any other speaker. But to each his own. Enjoy your setup and think about getting a much better sub.

McLoki

bbeacham wrote:

Sitting on the floor just like the fronts. All speakers set to large. Even had the LSi7s set to large. If you have the money then upgrade. It won't hurt and probably will be better.

If you had the 7's set as large - that could have been your problem. (usually when set to large, bass is not sent to the sub.) I am sure you would see a large difference changing the 7's for 15's. I would set your center to small and cross it over at 60 or 80hz if it is not already.

I still can't wait to hear a home theater with 4 LSi15's. I don't know how much difference it will make - but I am sure it will sound pretty good.

Congrats again on the upgrade.

Michael

Dennis Gardner

bbeacham wrote:

To me, the moral of the story is that, for optimum home theater, all speakers should be identical.

How high is your TV above that LSi 15 in the center?:rolleyes:

bbeacham

McLoki wrote:

If you had the 7's set as large - that could have been your problem. (usually when set to large, bass is not sent to the sub.) I am sure you would see a large difference changing the 7's for 15's. I would set your center to small and cross it over at 60 or 80hz if it is not already.
Michael

What problem? The 7s sounded great. The LSi15s are even better. For bass to the sub I use the pre-out on the amp to go to the sub. Sub is set to NO on the amp. When you use the amp to filter what freqs go to whatever speaker you are introducing distortion into the signal path. I doubt if very many DVD audio engineers send very low freq to the center channel. They know that it is primarily for speech.

Dennis Gardner

bbeacham wrote:

Sub is set to NO on the amp. .

I think you just found your bass issue.........you don't have LFE capabilities with your setup.

Dennis Gardner

So as not to bait someone into an argument.......let me state my preferences for speaker choices from lots of setups and installs over the years.

Mains: I prefer towers as mains if 2 channel music is important, due to general issues with sub integration. Besides, they look cool.....if 2 channel isn't important then bookshelves all acrossed the front are the best choice.

Sides: Dipoles work best just behind the seating and above ear level. The larger the better, but usually restricted to smaller models since high mounting is preferred unless I build in columns to hide the towers, then it is really users choice.

Rears: Bipoles or unidirectionals, based on user preference. Unidirectionals work best if multi channel music is of high importance. Again, above ear mounting is best.

Sub: LFE RCA driven with crossover set to 80 hz or lower based on mains ability to handle midbass.

All speakers set to small with sub "on" handling LFE on movies. Towers changed to large for 2 channel use without sub.

This hobby is all about making great choices and these are strictly my findings and preferences and should be viewed as such.

bbeacham

Dennis Gardner wrote:

I think you just found your bass issue.........you don't have LFE capabilities with your setup.

What bass issue? There has never been a lack of bass. Now there is more, maybe to much. Unless I want to knock the walls down I do not even turn on the sub anymore.

Dennis Gardner

If your sub is set to NO, then no real LFE below the capabilities of your 15s is present and you are missing alot of sub-bass in those action movies, since 15s simply can't do much sub-bass since its spec is down 3db below 30hz. There is a ton of sub-bass stuff you are missing, based on your claimed settings.

You may have plenty of bass, but no sub-bass.

PolkWannabie

Maybe he's routing Left and Right Preamp Outs to the sub ...

Then again, I don't have a clue what either of these mean ...

bbeacham wrote:

For bass to the sub I use the pre-out on the amp

What's a pre-out on an amp ?

bbeacham wrote:

Sub is set to NO on the amp.

How does one set the amp ? to NO sub ?

bbeacham

PolkWannabie wrote:

Maybe he's routing Left and Right Preamp Outs to the sub ...

Then again, I don't have a clue what either of these mean ...

What's a pre-out on an amp ?

How does one set the amp ? to NO sub ?

I am using "amp" as a generic term for receiver/home theater amplifier. Pre-amp output is what I meant by "pre-out". In this case, the pre-amp output for the front channels. Maybe I should buy another sub and also use the pre-amp output for the surround channels. But that is probably overkill.

The easiest way to "set the amp ? to NO sub " is "Subwoofer NO".

Holydoc

Obviously we have different tastes in what comprises the sound of a home theatre. If my wine bottles in the dining room wine rack don't start rattling or my chest start thumping or even my pants start flapping during a movie, then I am not enjoying the movie. You cannot achieve that with a speaker who subsonics can only hit at around 30Hz. Even then the power to drive those speakers to produce a 30Hz tone at reference levels while pushing the other speakers for any amount of time would be obscene.

I am sure you are hearing some wonderful bass. Hearing the bass is great for music purposes. But for HT, it is all about what you feel.

Again, I am not criticizing your system. If you like it then I am happy for you.

But for me when I sit down to my HT, I want a subwoofer that performs a subsonic massage of love on me while I am watching a movie. In my case, it is cheaper than therapy!

bbeacham

Holydoc wrote:

But for me when I sit down to my HT, I want a subwoofer that performs a subsonic massage of love on me while I am watching a movie. In my case, it is cheaper than therapy!

I am completely amazed where anyone is getting the idea that there is a lack of low energy in my HT. I said I am using the LSiW sub, which is now called the PSW1000. (It was renamed after Polk fixed the up-in-smoke problem some, not mine, exhibited). It can shake the house. It can be felt next door. However, I do have to lower the volume on it since the TV (Hitachi 57" digital monitor; i.e. no HDTV tuner) rattles on very loud low bass. This TV is a CRT RPT and the base is a large plastic box. I plan on replacing it with a new Sony 60" or 70" SXRD which shouldn't rattle.

One final point, this is in a 12x13 room (ex-bedroom) with an 8' ceiling. Hear me now, and believe me later. Even with the sub volume lowered I feel it, and this sounds better than any movie theater I have been to. Especially after replacing the LSi7s with the LSi15s.

That said, whether it is a BOOM BOOM car, or a BOOM BOOM HT, I do not like over exaggerated bass. Provide what the producer intended, and no more.

bbeacham

Dennis Gardner wrote:

How high is your TV above that LSi 15 in the center?:rolleyes:

Good point. One of these days (I wish) I will have a fantasy home with a HT room, use a projector, and put the center channel behind the screen. As it is now I use a homemade stand that I can adjust so that I move the center speaker up or down so that the top of the speaker is at the bottom of the picture, since some DVDs use the entire 16x9 format and others are letter-boxed. Also, I have door stops under the speaker to angle it up towards the listener. Works okay, but behind would be better.

Sami

bbeacham wrote:

Provide what the producer intended, and no more.

Even with the small room I doubt you're getting to reference levels with the PSW1000. But it sounds like you don't want to either.

I had my HT in my old house in a room exactly the same size and 15's alone would provide decent bass on that room but to get into any of the "special effects" by bass you still needed a decent sub with high output in the low bass. What I have heard and experienced LSiW, it can't reach those pressure levels, although I haven't heard it in a such a small room.

One question though, how are you fitting the 15's in that small of a space? One seat only? I had three seats that barely fit in that space and the 7's would barely fit in as surrounds. I did like the sound much better though than in my current HT which is a much, much larger space. I'm not even half way finished yet but that room does need a lot of sound treatment. I ran the 7's all around in that room mainly and the 2.1 channel with PCU as a sub was just unbelievable, I doubt I will ever get the new room to sound as good. I still need to test out if the 15's give any advantage over the 7's as mains, on the old room there really wasn't much so I ran the 15's as pure 2 channel in my bedroom. Like said, decent bass on that setup but a lot was missing.

Holydoc

bbeacham wrote:

I am completely amazed where anyone is getting the idea that there is a lack of low energy in my HT.

Well this assumption came from your statements.

bbeacham wrote:

In fact, unless I want to over amplify the bass I can leave the sub turned off and still have plenty of low end.

bbeacham wrote:

Sub is set to NO on the amp.

bbeacham wrote:

Unless I want to knock the walls down I do not even turn on the sub anymore.

Hope that cures the amazement part.

Sherardp

Pepi28 wrote:

How can anyone say a sub is only good for a few brief periods in a movie. The 3 movies you just mentioned have a whole lot of very low end bass in them which LSi15's couldnt produce with a miracle. IMHO the 15's as surrounds are a big waste of money. I would have upgraded the sub before any other speaker. But to each his own. Enjoy your setup and think about getting a much better sub.

Hes probably not getting optimum bass output like a sub would give in his theater, so surely he is probably missing out on allot. I agree, a sub, at least mine anyway gets a workout on every movie I watch in some way, it may be lower in more movies than others. Take those 15s back and get yaself a PB12 PLus 2 and you'll notice experience even more in your theater. Congrats on your purchase to say the least.

jkn

McLoki wrote:

I still can't wait to hear a home theater with 4 LSi15's. I don't know how much difference it will make - but I am sure it will sound pretty good.

Michael

Humorously, my wife has decided 4 LSi15's is what she wants at this point - at least as far as "looks" go and what we've researched. She wasn't excited by the price, or when I said we'd probably need to be adding an amp to our AVR... We didn't care for the looks of the RTi series as much, and the LSi matches our piano.

Of course, even funnier is we haven't really heard anything yet - we'll be bugging Michael for a speaker demo one of these days! Adding to that - this is massive overkill for our needs...

Wow, this whole replacing our HT thing is becoming a humorous journey. Can't afford any of it at the moment - but LSi fronts and center might be our first step.

Monster Jam

JKN,

I run 4 LSi15s; 2 front LR and 2 rear LR, and a LSiC. There is another thread floating around here somewhere about the pros and cons of doing this from my vantage point, but essentially we went with the towers all the way around because of asthetics and design needs in our 'tough-to-satisfy' theatre-loft. To make a long story short, I would have gotten more satisfaction from LSiFX (the 15's are a bit too directional for surrounds), but the room made this option impossible without stands.

It was expensive, but I don't tend to have upgrade-itus where speakers are concerned. I think I bought the best speaker for me at a select price point. I'll replace them when they die or when they become obsolete by some unforseen technology (say, ribbon speakers that go all the way around the crown of your walls generating an infinite number of sound locations - 7 or even 9 speakers will be a thing of the past). I need to get an amp; I run all 5 LSi speakers off of one HK AVR 525. Its doing the job now, but I know I will get better performance with an amp simply because I get better sound in Stereo mode when the AVR bridges to 2 channels. The amp is another area where I wont skimp because like the speakers, they are at less risk of obsoletion (is that a word?).

I run them with a Velodyne SPL 1200 series II. While the 15's offer decent bass, you'll need the sub for home theatre.

PolkWannabie

Monster Jam wrote:

To make a long story short, I would have gotten more satisfaction from LSiFX (the 15's are a bit too directional for surrounds).

Presactly

Monster Jam wrote:

... but the room made this option impossible without stands ...

So ? ...